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To: boatbums
To me, he is saying that extra-Bibical, "special" revelation of these doctrines makes them MORE important that Biblically revealed truths. Am I understanding this correctly and do you agree with him?

No, the Catholic Church says that these doctrines are equally infallible with scripture. (The Council of Trent itself infallibly defined the Biblical Canon so the Bible is itself part of those "special" doctrines defined as infallible).

The Church believes all Public Revelation (The Deposit of Faith) is divided into two parts. The Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. Scriptures are the part of Revelation that the apostles and prophets wrote down, the unwritten parts of Revelation that were taught by Christ to the Apostles and handed down orally are called Sacred Tradition. When the pope/Ecumenical Council promulgate an infallible definition, they cannot create/receive new revelations, they can only clarify whether a teaching has always been in or is compatible with the Deposit of Faith or not. Here is what the Council of Trent had to say concerning the scriptures:

The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,—lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding therein,—keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament—seeing that one God is the author of both —as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession.

33 posted on 04/30/2012 12:09:54 AM PDT by old republic
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To: old republic
No, the Catholic Church says that these doctrines are equally infallible with scripture. (The Council of Trent itself infallibly defined the Biblical Canon so the Bible is itself part of those "special" doctrines defined as infallible).

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Although you say, "the Catholic Church says that these doctrines are equally infallible with scripture", the author of the article quoted seemed to be saying the "infallibly" defined ex-cathedra doctrines were more important than those doctrine spelled out specifically in Holy Scripture.

Additionally, the "church" as a body recognized the books and letters written by the Apostles or God's chosen prophets as they were written and dispersed throughout the Christian communities long before there was any "official" recognition of a New Testament "canon". Their "Stamp of Authority" was the authority of the very Apostles themselves and they were received universally, or nearly so, as the Word of God. These writings bore witness with the Holy Spirit within each believer that they WERE from God and their life-affirming and life-changing character only enhanced that assurance. From http://www.the-highway.com/ntcanon_Warfield.html:

    The Old Testament books were not the only ones which the apostles (by Christ’s own appointment the authoritative founders of the church) imposed upon the infant churches, as their authoritative rule of faith and practice. No more authority dwelt in the prophets of the old covenant than in themselves, the apostles, who had been “made sufficient as ministers of a new covenant “; for (as one of themselves argued) “if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.” Accordingly not only was the gospel they delivered, in their own estimation, itself a divine revelation, but it was also preached “in the Holy Ghost” (I Pet. i. 12); not merely the matter of it, but the very words in which it was clothed were “of the Holy Spirit” (I Cor. ii. 13). Their own commands were, therefore, of divine authority (I Thess. iv. 2), and their writings were the depository of these commands (II Thess. ii. 15). “If any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle,” says Paul to one church (II Thess. iii. 14), “note that man, that ye have no company with him.” To another he makes it the test of a Spirit-led man to recognize that what he was writing to them was “the commandments of the Lord” (I Cor. xiv. 37). Inevitably, such writings, making so awful a claim on their acceptance, were received by the infant churches as of a quality equal to that of the old “Bible “; placed alongside of its older books as an additional part of the one law of God; and read as such in their meetings for worship — a practice which moreover was required by the apostles (I Thess. v. 27; Col. iv. 16; Rev. 1. 3). In the apprehension, therefore, of the earliest churches, the “Scriptures” were not a closed but an increasing “canon.” Such they had been from the beginning, as they gradually grew in number from Moses to Malachi; and such they were to continue as long as there should remain among the churches “men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

The main reason Trent was convened was to answer the challenges that the Reformers presented. One big part of those challenges was the place of authority given to the Holy Scriptures ABOVE the authority of the Pope and Magesterium. All doctrines of the church should be backed up and proved by Scripture. The "Church" did/does not have authority over God's word. It's the other way around.

You state that, "When the pope/Ecumenical Council promulgate an infallible definition, they cannot create/receive new revelations, they can only clarify whether a teaching has always been in or is compatible with the Deposit of Faith or not.". Yet, the one main doctrine the author of the article cites, there is only one clear-cut instance where a pope has taught infallibly: Pope Pius XII’s 1950 proclamation of Our Lady’s assumption", is nowhere found in Holy Scripture, was not taught "orally" by the Apostles - even John who was given the duty of caring for Mary - and was not even proclaimed as "infallible" doctrine until nearly two thousand years after the time of Christ. The claim, that the Pope does not "create or receive" new doctrine, is refuted in this one instance where this newly recognized "gift" was actually used, though, there have been many other doctrines created with such assumed authority. It seems that this "symbolic" term/idea/concept was devised as a sort of "hedge" against future challenges to their authority which is why many non-Catholic Christians reject it.

47 posted on 04/30/2012 9:27:21 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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