Posted on 04/19/2012 11:58:25 AM PDT by NYer
I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine.
It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple: it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church. No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why. They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.
The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.
What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.” One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.” Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative. Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted. Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent. Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way. I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary: “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.” One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.” Unfair? Perhaps. But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.
A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching. Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.” Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience. That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact: sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions. All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks. Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking. An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it. When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.
A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey. Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people: many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small. Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away. A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore. Can we help? Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong? We’d love to see you back with us.”
The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve. However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
Given that we are the Church whose primary objective is to be as much as possible a 1 century institution that Christ and the Holy Apostles built, I am surprised that anyone has stayed.
I’d worry if the crowd that Joel Olsteen has in his stadium shows up in my Church.
St. John did not say you WILL or SHALL eternal life. He said you MAY or MIGHT have eternal life. You need to ask yourself why that is a conditional statement.
Jesus made conditional statements and He made unconditional statements. If you wish to believe that gravity pulls upward and the sky is green and fantasies are real because you want them to be, what need have you?
Their premise is wrong and therefore their conclusions are also wrong.
What premise and what conclusion? Paul himself states many times in Scripture that he was the apostle to the Gentiles, supported by the very words of Jesus.
It's been demonstrated more than once out of Scripture itself that it is true. Continued denial of the truth found in God breathed, Holy Spirit inspired Scripture can only be an indication of a depth of deception that is staggering.
If Jesus' own words aren't good enough for you, I don't know where you go next.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him (Ananias), “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
Acts 22:21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Acts 23:10-11 10 And when the dissension became violent, the tribune, afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him away from among them by force and bring him into the barracks. 11 The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.”
Acts 26:13-18 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles— to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Now, who do I believe? Jesus? Or the Catholic church? Or someone else who puts themselves forth as an authority when it's clear they don't know Scripture?
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.
A light went on in my soul - what I now know was the Holy Spirit illuminating God's truth to my heart - and I understood that Jesus was speaking to me telling me that he GAVE me eternal life from which I would never perish, never to be plucked from his hands and that I could KNOW I had eternal life through faith in Him. I realized then and there that what I had been told all my life by the Catholic Church about going to heaven was NOT the truth and I also KNEW that I had no desire to go back to it. I certainly had the freedom to if I wanted, but I did not want to. Everything since then that I have learned about the Catholic religion only reinforces that I made the right decision.
When anyone wants to know "why do Catholics leave", my answer is that some realize the truth of the Gospel - the real Gospel - and returning back to Catholicism is unthinkable. I have never regretted my decision and my walk with Christ only grows stronger the more I live for and learn of Him.
Ahem, John said that you MAY KNOW that you HAVE eternal life, not that you MAY HAVE eternal life.
Do try some reading comprehension lessons.
No stalking involved. She's stated it several times, there for all to see.
Every society aligns itself on the principles it orders itself to. Catholicism orders itself, rightly, to the three transcendentals of Truth, the Beauty and Goodness. These three achieve their convergent perfection in God who is infinite truth, beauty and goodness. The effort to achieve greater levels of beauty in Catholic art, architecture, music and Liturgy are worship and are done in reverence to God, not paganism.
Amen, Dr. E.
btw, so glad to “see” you!
How does that work in the economy of the Catholic Church's teaching that the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when in his official capacity he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals? Are you stating that you disagree with what a legitimately elected Pope and the "Sacred Magesterium" have decided in Vatican II? Are you admitting to exercising your own "interpretation" of the truth? Interesting...
You are very miss informed. The scripture is read at all Masses. Just amazing! How you just do not even know yet make pronouncements against it.
Everyday a reading
First Reading:
Here is Today's
Acts 5:27-33
Psalm 34:2, 9, 17-20
John 3:31-36
Thy lightnings enlightened the world: the earth shook and trembled. -- Ps. lxxvi. 19
Yet you believe once saved always saved.
Why we don't see what John the Apostle writes then read about it. He is in the Bible.
A State Of Grace Or Call it a Stewardship of Grace ?
It is a State or Stewardship of Grace. Just look at 1John1. We maintain it. Notice John talks about himself.
This is addressed to Christians. We have to live the life.
We have to confess our sins to God as Christians though Jesus.
John 1:
5 “This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 IF we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
verse 7 “shows IF WE KEEP THE WALK THE SON PURIFIES.”
8 IF WE( Christians) claim to be Without Sin, WE DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT in US. 9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.”
There are several IF ‘s in this by John The Apostle.
IF is defined as Condition, Requirement Or Stipulation in my Dictionary.
Notice every One of the words IF the true meaning it reads after this word if are presented for true understanding.
Notice Deceive. Deceive equals if We Claim to be with out Sins.
Notice how “we make God a liar” and His Word is Not in Us.
Do Not Be Decieved. Why would The Apostle John write These exact words!
He uses the word “We” meaning he includes himself.
He uses a lot of We’s too. Hmmmm. Do Not Be Deceived!
WE are Not Robots!
Do Not Be Deceived!
GOD IS NOT A DICTATOR!
Jesus I Pray for All to Understand Your Apostle’s Words !
You have to LOVE THE LORD THOU GOD. YOU CAN NOT LOVE HIM IF YOU ARE A ROBOT. A Free Willed person can only Love not a Robot.
Luke 10:27
He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, He Is faithful and just and Will Forgive us Our sins and Purify us from all unrighteousness...................
IF.....................
A Condition , Requirement or Stipulation!!
IF =IF =IF =IF =IF =IF =IF=
IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF..............
A Condition , Requirement or Stipulation!!
Praise You Jesus Always!
Glory Be To The Father ,Son and Holy Spirit!
Thank you for your testimony, bb. God gave you the gift of discernment at a young age. Bless you. You are one of Christ’s own FOREVER!
“The Church gave the world Leonardo and Michaelangelo and I, for one, am damned grateful!”
And don’t forget Antoni Gaudí!!
This seems to be the standard "defense" of those that have nothing of value to contribute to an examination of THEIR faith..
"Fallen away"..No walked away ..No ran as fast as I could away ...as if I was running from the devil himself
My faith has not " lapsed" ..as a Roman catholic I had no faith in the work of Christ on my behalf.. my "faith" was in a man made system and my adherence to it and my obedience to their "rules"..it was faith in a system..not a faith in Christ..
Thanks to the grace of God I soared into the arms of my Savior...where I am held securely ...
I am not "hostile" to the Roman church I simply hate false doctrine that will damn well meaning men and women ..I ask them to compare what they are taught to the word of God ..
I do not care if they are Catholics or Mormons or JWs ... my desire is for all to come to Christ
“I think that some people are going to be REALLY surprised about who they meet once they walk through those pearly gates.”
And even MORE will be REALLY surprised to find they’re not walking through those pearly gates, after all. Total bummer.
Excellent words to live by especially as we converse on this forum. We cannot know each others motives nor what's in each others hearts, we can only be responsible for ourselves and how we communicate. It's always a good idea to do a "heart check" first before we answer back to a post that angers us. If we let Him, sometimes the Lord convicts us of the very thing we are so quick to accuse in others. Our words should always be sweet because sometimes we may have to eat them, I think the line goes.
Amen...
Amen...
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