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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg
Dr. E-"God's will is 180 degrees from man's will" MB-"Do you even understand how provincial and unlearned that statement is? God's will is. "

Dr. E is absolutely correct and is precisely what I'm trying to point out. There is God's will and there is man's will. They are completely opposite.

I'd suggest that the both of you relook at these statements and at what 180 degrees opposite means. One way of looking at it is to say that you are attempting to compare the finite (man) to the Infinite (God) by attempting to put them both on a one dimensional line pointing in opposite directions.

God's will is. The entire universe is part of God's will. His will is All and it is constant. Man's will varies according to whim, for the most part. One cannot compare them, because they are incomparable, not opposite.

Actually, the nature of man cannot be mortally wounded. If one were to go back and review the events of Adam, we see that Adam sinned before judgment took place. Reading through the curse of Adam we see that he goes back to dust, the ground is cursed, his life is going to be difficult, etc. It did nothing to change his nature. All God's command not to eat the fruit served to show that man will NOT keep God's command-no matter how simple. We are, by nature, disobedient and rebellious.

The consequence of Adam and Eve disobeying God was that their children would inherit original sin. Remember in Genesis 2? Adam and Eve were made without sin, without the capacity to sin. They didn't know what it was. The devil got them transformed with the fruit of the tree. That is the point where mankind's nature changed.

What does Paul say?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15: 21For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

So, there was a change.

We could complain to God that this isn't fair because of the way He made us; but then that is one of the reasons Christ came in His humanity-to show us that this isn't a flaw in mankind. Rather we could obey God's commands if we really wanted to as Christ did. We, children of Adam, just don't want to. That is why as Christians God has to replace our hearts of stones and "cause" us to walk in His statutes and obey His ordinances.

Influence (with His Grace)? Or compel (computer programming)? Did Jesus really come to redeem the entire world? Does He wish all men to be saved? Or is He simply a housewife grocery shopping and picking over the produce?

590 posted on 04/09/2012 5:23:29 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
God's will is. The entire universe is part of God's will. ...Man's will varies according to whim, for the most part. One cannot compare them, because they are incomparable, not opposite.

If they are incomparable, then how can you say the are not opposite? Instead of saying "man's will varies according to whim", you could really just say "man sometimes does God's will and sometimes his own". That is what you're really suggesting and is at the heart of "free will". But not only are there numerous verses that states man's heart is continuously corrupt and our ways are evil, there is also numerous examples in scriptures that simply shows this to us. And, as we know with Adam, just one sin is enough to cast us out of the presence of God.

Remember in Genesis 2? Adam and Eve were made without sin, without the capacity to sin.

If Adam and Eve did not have the capacity to sin, they would never have sinned. If Christ did not have the capacity to sin, He could never have been the perfect sacrifice.

They didn't know what it [sic sin] was.

Sure they did; although perhaps not in those terms. But both knew they were being disobedient to God's commandment. And disobedient is rebellion to God.

What does Paul say? Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Paul is correct. (What else did you expect me to say. :O) )

Once Adam showed he could be disobedient to God, disobedient spread like wildfire. That is precisely what happened to the next generation-Cain. God told Cain in the very next chapter, "sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it". So what did Cain do-disobey what God had told him. God also told Cain that he could rule over sin. Cain simply did not want to. When "free will" could have rule, it didn't. By the time it got to verse 24 of the 4th chapter, Lamech was proudly boasting that he could kill peoples just as well.

Sin came in the world through Adam simply because Adam was disobedient to God. Perfection came in the world through Christ because Christ was obedient to God the Father-even unto death. Adam followed his own will and ruined the race. Christ lived a perfect life by doing God's will, not His own. What was it Christ said, "Not my will but thine."

Did Jesus really come to redeem the entire world? Does He wish all men to be saved?

In the end, the entire world is not going to be redeemed. I think we can already exclude at least several of the people in scriptures. And I'm sure we could come up with a few more if we tried hard enough. So, no, Christ did not fail at His mission because His mission was not to redeem the entire world.

But I would suggest you're looking at the questions in the wrong way. The real question is why did Jesus come to save any of us?

593 posted on 04/10/2012 4:13:17 PM PDT by HarleyD
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