Posted on 03/17/2012 7:26:45 AM PDT by GonzoII
Who gave you the Scriptures?
Inerrant documents are only inerrant if infallibly interpreted. Are you claiming that you are interpreting them infallibly?
Are each of the 33,000 Protestant denominations (the actual number is not important) that do not agree with YOU from hell too?
Is there any common ground between your belief system and Catholicism?
Do you agree 100% with the Credos (Creeds) that preceded the Scripture of the New Testament? (The Old Roman Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed)?
I said, the "intellectual giants", referring to the rabbinical schools which taught the means of fulfilling the Law. I did not say the OT was wrong. Check out the Mishna, a catalogue of 63 topical books explaining the oral traditions associated with subjects from the Torah. Even Pirkey Avot (book 63) containing famous rabbinical sayings is in there.
Add to that the Gemara, the commentaries on the Mishna. Together you get the Talmud. And teachers like Gamaliel held that the Mishna was as "important as the written Torah". Here is the pre-cursor to the errors of Rome.
But, it gets worse. Gamaliel taught that every exquisite detail of the Law, down to the infinitesimal level of exacting obedience, could and should be kept to meet the Law's demands. This interpretive technique became known as the Midrashim. God would be pleased if every possible obligation were explored and executed.
Along comes Jesus, the Son of God, and says, "You have heard the ancients say..." "...but I tell you..." THEY HAVE IT WRONG. The Law is far more perfect than they have said, far more demanding, far higher than any mortal can reach. What shall we do? Glad you asked. What is impossible with man, is possible with God.
It is those who add to the message of the Scriptures who are wrong, and these intellectual giants did so for 1400 years. The same thing has happened to Rome.
LOL! The only difference in what those rabbinical schools did and what you claim to do is in the conclusions reached. Unlike you and they, "Rome" has the hand of the Holy Spirit guiding it through Apostolic Succession and Traditions manifest in the Magisterium. If I have to pick a poison it will certainly be them over you or the rabbinical schools that also see fit to reject the entire New Testament.
We are going to get you some reading lessons for Christmas. Perhaps that can help you avoid the poison of Rome.
But this is what you've done in sola scriptura, sola fide, your view of church, etc.
Send me a good Greek course. My English, Latin and German are OK, but my Greek is pretty weak.
Nope.
Do you not believe Christ gave him instructions, a commission, the apostleship to the Gentiles?
I believe that Paul's commission was in addition to, not a replacement for the missions of the rest of the Apostles. Remember that he had to go to them and be examined by them before they accepted him.
Why do you insist that to understand Paul’s unique calling in the mystery, hid in God, from the foundation of the world until revealed to him, is to deny Christ?
I don't. You are the one insisting I do. We believe that Paul was called by Christ to help with the fledgling Church's survival. Remember that Paul was a salesman. Also please note that when you follow Acts and Paul's letters, he spends more time either with the Jews or (towards the end) more with the converted Christians. Paul is to become all things to all men to help the Church survive and grow. It was Peter that converted the first men to Christianity after Pentecost. Paul is important, but so is Peter. The school and church I grew up in are both named Sts. Peter and Paul. Not Peter or Paul.
It doesn’t make sense, in any sense of understanding Paul’s writings. Over and over again, in every letter, every epistle, every doctrine, it is ALL about Christ and His revelations to Paul for the Church the Body of Christ. Us. Please, I’ve communicated too long with you for you to continue to make this a “choose one or the other” game.
I'm not. You are. The Gospel is both the Word and the word of God. If you think that Paul's message is different than the Gospels and the teachings of the 12 are different, it is your interpretation of Paul that is faulty.
To not believe what Paul said Christ gave to him is to call Paul a liar or Christ a liar. You wanna choose that? Soitenly not...I’m sure :)
Paul was a salesman, sent by God to serve the Church (not to supplant or surpass the message of Jesus, but to put it in sales talk) but Paul's message can be, as Peter says, misinterpreted to one's destruction. Same as misinterpreting any salesman's delivery.
1 Corinthians 9: 19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23
Paul is a super salesman, and was a critical part of the success of the Church. Jesus was the whole basis of the Church - I hope we don't have to debate that again. But what was Peter?
Acts 15: 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Peter is the leader of the 12. Paul had to come to Peter to receive the sniff test, as it were (which Paul resented all his life).
Acts 2: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” ... 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
This is what their roles were. Peter the leader of the Church, steward of Christ until His return. Paul, the energetic salesman with his small band of merry marauders, performing hit and run raids against the Jews until the churches under his jurisdiction started to flourish, then paying more attention to them. But his churches were stocked with more Jews than Gentiles, if his journeys were any indication. So was his claim of evangelizer to the Gentiles sales talk?
2 Peter 3 says what they ought to be doing.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b] That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. 14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
Oh dear, sounds like Peter is accusing Paul of teaching a salvation that can be lost by evil works...
Actually, it was John the Baptist who was the herald for the King. Paul was one of the King's embassadors pleading for the enemy to be reconciled with the sovereign.
Ambassador or emissary. A better description. Appreciated.
Matthew 28: 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Mark 16: 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Acts 1: 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
So Matthew says it; Mark says it; Luke says it in Acts (and John omits it). All the earth. All nations. All men. Not just the Jews.
Very good. Let us follow that and see where it goes.
If you follow the organization formed by God, who promised to stay with them via the Holy Spirit until He returns, then you have a problem with God, not the organization. If you follow only yourself, then how can the created individual claim superiority over what God has commanded? Error #1.
If the belief of divergence from Scripture is simply a matter of selective Scripture and personal interpretation (proscribed by the same Scriptures you use as authority), then we arrive at error #2.
When the Lord God Almighty in the Person of Jesus Christ says that the Law is not abolished, and one of the created says it is, we arrive at error #3.
In short, it comes down to whether one's selective reading and interpretation of Scripture is superior to the Church created by Jesus Christ or not.
Paying attention to what is and is not in the Scriptures is adding to the Scriptures? Is this Rome’s logic?
I thought you gave up all this wrestling for Lent?
Let me be perfectly clear. The Body of Christ is not, repeat not, an “organization”. That is something that the RCC cooked up to keep the sheeple in chains. The Body of Christ is the assembly gathered by the Holy Spirit from all over the world, the believers in Jesus who have been rescued by the rebirth from above. Correction #1.
The organization from Rome is the outfit which has added to the simple message of faith in Jesus, granted by the grace of God. The believers in Christ don’t need papalism, sacerdotalism, indulgences, confession in booths, Hail Mary’s for penance, pergatory, sacraments, pope mobiles, and prada shoes. Correction #2
If Paul says that Jesus told him the Law is gone, then I am going to listen to the apostle appointed by Jesus. And your organization wants the credit for finding all of his letters and binding them into the Book. Now your gang doesn’t like what they say. Correction #3
If you guys would read the text and God permitted the scales to fall off, you would swim back over that infested Tiber and into the light of Christ, alone. Now, some of you might very well be among the elect, thus He will rescue you in spite of Rome. For this I am grateful. Got to run...
No. The doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide are adding to scripture, outside scripture. Taking your personal interpretation as authoritative is adding. These are not in scripture, contrary to scripture.
Not with the participants this attractive. :)
Let me be perfectly clear. The Body of Christ is not, repeat not, an “organization”. That is something that the RCC cooked up to keep the sheeple in chains. The Body of Christ is the assembly gathered by the Holy Spirit from all over the world, the believers in Jesus who have been rescued by the rebirth from above. Correction #1.
The Gospels and Acts disagree with that statement. Jesus put a lot of time and effort into the creation of the Church. Peter and the 12, as well as Paul and his assistants show that that statement is wrong overall. The Church is an organization; else it is chaos. We have the chaos of the Reformation, for instance which has given us the fracturing of Christianity (with the expected departure from Christianity) warned about by Christ.
The organization from Rome is the outfit which has added to the simple message of faith in Jesus, granted by the grace of God. The believers in Christ don’t need papalism, sacerdotalism, indulgences, confession in booths, Hail Mary’s for penance, pergatory, sacraments, pope mobiles, and prada shoes. Correction #2
The believers in Christ need to believe in Christ. However, one's personal interpretation of Christianity is proscribed in Scripture. You have named a number of things as antithetical to Christianity. Let us take them in order.
Papalism. Peter in Acts 2 and 10.
Sacerdotalism. The Last Supper and all of early Christianity.
Indulgences. The power to forgive sins and the power of the keys.
Confession in booths. You don't believe in confession and repentence of sins?
Hail Mary’s for penance. Who are you to prescribe penance?
Purgatory. What else would you call the transition between earth and heaven after Judgement?
Sacraments. What Jesus left us with.
Pope mobiles. Even Jesus withdrew from angry crowds.
Prada shoes. No Pope in history has worn Prada shoes. Boy, you're not swinging it over the plate tonight.
If Paul says that Jesus told him the Law is gone, then I am going to listen to the apostle appointed by Jesus. And your organization wants the credit for finding all of his letters and binding them into the Book. Now your gang doesn’t like what they say. Correction #3
Jesus says that the Law is not gone. Am I going to listen to your interpretation of Paul or am I going to listen to Christ?
If you guys would read the text and God permitted the scales to fall off, you would swim back over that infested Tiber and into the light of Christ, alone. Now, some of you might very well be among the elect, thus He will rescue you in spite of Rome. For this I am grateful. Got to run...
Actually, God is permitting more and more to swim to pure destinations over the pure Tiber (and head East to the Orthodox who are our equal brothers in Faith).
Good talking to you. Perhaps I may show you the error of your individualistic post Reformation ways. Jesus gave the instruction 2000 years ago. He didn't mean for a self serving cabal to open up Christianity to the lowest common denomination.
Ping to post.
The Jewish Christians that were forced to flee from the persecution of Acts 8:1,2 went into Phenice, Cyprus, and Antioch establishing Christian Churches to all, including Gentiles...uh, no, that's not right...they established JEWISH churches.
His first six epistles are full of miracles, signs and wonders (Acts 19:12) and legal ceremonies (Acts 16:3,4), "because of the JEWS" (Acts 16:3). (cf. 1 Cor. 9:20-23; 10:32). Those epistles would be 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, and Romans.
BUT AFTER Israel is blinded and set aside, Acts 28, he no longer preaches or practices things that are Jewish. The Gospel is preached to the nations WITHOUT RACIAL PRIORITIES (Eph. 2:11-22; 3:6), WITHOUT MIRACLES, SIGNS, and WONDERS (1 Tim. 5:23, 2 Tim. 4:20; Phil 2:25-29) and WITHOUT LEGAL CEREMONIES (Phil. 3:8-14).
Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, Philemon, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus would be those epistles AFTER Israel is set aside. So to say that Paul stayed within Jewry is only partly right. As long as Israel was operational and could have accepted Christ as Messiah, Paul went to the Jew first, as a minister of confirmation to the Jews concerning Jesus, the promised Messiah. (Acts 13:14-41; 18:5; 26:22, 28:23).
But he also had a ministry of revelation. The Apostle to the Gentiles, The dispensation of the grace of God, the Church the Body of Christ, the One New Man, the fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9). All by direct revelations to him from the risen Christ, beginning in Acts 9.
unless you just believe him to be just a really good salesman...
Quick question:
For your ‘before and after,’ chronological order, of Paul’s epistles, are you going by the order they appear in the canon?
Placeholder to one of the better threads I’ve seen in a while. ;o)
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