Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[metmom]

The problem is that wolves in sheep’s clothing are still wolves.

I don’t think that Satan ever tells complete lies. There is always going to be some truth mixed into it. For one thing, I think it would be impossible to tell 100% lies.

The other thing is that mixing some truth in with the lies makes the lies more palatable.

The fruit of Copeland’s life does not match the fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5.

The Holy Spirit will convict when truth is told even coming from a false prophet but just because something good can come of it on occasion, is not justification for accepting the rest. There are better sources of Scriptural teaching than Copeland, men who hold much more to the integrity of Scripture with integrity in their own lives.

With the false doctrine he’s teaching, it’s not worth the risk of being deceived to think that you can take what is good out of his teaching and ignore the bad.

[metmom]

No one can discount the feeling of discomfort and write it off as the natural man reaction to the things of the Spirit without careful consideration.

It could very well be the discomfort is coming from the Holy Spirit warning us of something that is NOT from Him. That indeed takes discernment but to simply operate on the assumption that the discomfort is from the natural man and fight it could very well leave you fighting God.

—we are, as mortals, usually, far too addicted to ‘fear of man’ and approval of others. How does one imagine approval for doing something there’s NO SCRIPT FOR—NO WAY TO “GET IT RIGHT” FOR YOU BECAUSE IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE UNIQUE FOR YOU BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.

Scriptural support for that please..... Chapter and verses......

—I think that’s ACTUALLY ONE of the strategies, objectives and benefits of tongues—it FORCES—in a sense—us to ‘get over our-selves’ and abandon to God. NOT in a possessed sense—HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT LIKE DEMONIC SPIRITS ON SUCH SCORES. He only comes and influences as in a dance where He’s invited.

Scriptural support for that please..... Chapter and verses......

Besides, hello, for all I've heard this nonsense about *inviting* Him in, well, He's already IN the life of the believer. There is no need to *invite* Him in or to work. It already is God who works in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13)

Perhaps you could consider going back to God and noting that you are eager to receive and practice all the Biblical Gifts of His Spirit that he has for you. That you’d at least like to be able to pray in tongues.

Tongues is the least of the gifts. Paul says he'd rather that we prophesy than speak in tongues. Why encourage anyone to go for the least? What's wrong with seeking and practicing the other gifts of the Spirit? Who do we ever see encouraging others to seek after teaching, preaching, wisdom, knowledge, discernment, helps, giving, acts of mercy, serving..... What's wrong with those gifts that nobody seems to want them?

Then step out in faith obediently with sound sequences not from a lanugage you have learned and see how God affirms such efforts with fruit in your life.

Manufactured tongues. What a novel concept.....

NOT!!! That is exactly the fakery and fraud that we're warning about. We do NOT have to *help* God along in exercising the gifts. He gives them AS HE WILL, not at our behest.

If God's behind it it will happen with NO help from us, complete and perfect. Telling people to work into it by making sounds is deception, plain and simple.

[Quix]

INDEED.

The Gospel itself brings division when folks start earnestly practicing it in their relationships.

The rebellious are not interested. And unless they repent, confess, turn from such and let go of their rebellion, there WILL BE DIVISION.

Tongues is sort of a stark challenge to those who are addicted to !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque stuff of themselves and others—IN THE FLESH. It is a call, a challenge to surrender the flesh to Holy Spirit’s direction. That’s a key reason why !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque folks are so resistent and hostile to it.

The battle in our Christian walk is virtually always with our flesh. We try to perfect ourselves in the flesh. We try to do ‘the Christian thing’ in the flesh. It never works.

Letting go and letting God is a dance of self-control and responsibility to do what we are called of God to do and that usually BY LETTING GO OF LEADING THE DANCE ABANDONING CONTROL AND FOLLOWING SUBMISSIVELY AND COOPERATIVELY AS HOLY SPIRIT LEADS THE DANCE.

It’s a delicate fine line.

And it’s a line that teachers, preachers, prophetic people, tongues and interpretation people have a LOT of experience with. It is easy to cross back and forth over the line of in or out of the flesh.

MANY people get frustrated with that phenomenon and find it easier to just give up the frustrating challenge to remain operating consistently in Holy Spirit vs the flesh and they just avoid teaching, preaching, ministering, prophetic sharing or tongues and interpretation rather than risk BEING WRONG!

WELLLL WHOOOP T DO. That assumes that somehow by such avoidance they’ll manage to do the rest of their Christian walk perfectly and never in the flesh. WRONG!

Just because someone is walking out some other aspect of the Christian life that’s not so public or vulnerable to criticism does NOT mean it’s LESS in the flesh! It’s just easier hidden or white-washed.

PART OF THE PURPOSE OF THIS LIFE IS TO DEMONSTRATE TO US AND THE WORLD

THAT

APART FROM HIM,

WE CAN DO

NOTHING!

Sigh.

Yet perversely, we still

STRIVE IN THE FLESH

TO PERFECT

OURSELVES—IN OUR USUAL !CONTROL! PHREAQUE WAYS—LEAVING GOD OUT OF IT BECAUSE—THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WE CAN HANDLE *THIS* PART OF PERFECTING OURSELVES. . . . OR SO WE DELUDEDLY PRETEND.

STRIVING in the flesh

will always produce wood, hay and stubble or worse.

That’s true teaching a Bible study; praying for a loved one; preaching; singing; whatever

used tampon WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS we are so proud of our POLISHED, WHITEWASHED, PRISSY STRIVING in.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy [minstral] rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

None of us likes to think that our best efforts in our flesh are such a stench.

Virtually all Christians at some point, to some degree like to pretend that in spite of being ‘saved by faith alone’ we are now earning our Salvation by our prissy self-righteous works in the flesh.

We feel more smug and more confident of being on the right path and landing in Heaven BECAUSE of the more hours we pray; or the more we give; or the more street people we bring to church; or the more church positions we hold or the more we witness in lines at Walmart; . . . .

But it’s all a self-defeating farce to pretend that works of the flesh will ever produce righteousness or fruit of Holy Spirit.

It’s like giving alms before men for praise of men. We already have the reward.

ONLY HOLY SPIRIT SATURATED WORKS PRODUCE FRUIT OF HOLY SPIRIT.

Other stuff may LOOK good TO MAN. But it’s a trap. It will burn up. It’s wood hay and stubble.

GOD MAY STILL BRING GOOD OF IT . . . but that’s because OF GOD—not our works.

I’m reminded of my Mother’s cousins . . . a couple of cowboys some 60 or so years ago. They were up in Montana or Wyoming, I think it was. And they needed money to get back to Texas.

They were backslidden Christians reared in church so they decided to hold a revival in some park or some such place. They went for several nights and a dozen or 3 people walked forward and made professions of faith in Christ.

The cousins were unsaved at the time—certainly not walking with Jesus. They were drinking, cussing, carousing cowboys.

Nevertheless, not only did they get money to return to Texas. YEARS LATER, THEY MET AGAIN SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO CAME FORWARD ACCEPTING CHRIST in that revival—and those individuals in some cases were still WALKING WITH GOD. God used even the cowboys’ works of flesh to produce a lasting spiritual walk in other individuals’ lives.

HOWEVER, THOSE WORKS OF FLESH DID NOT PRODUCE HOLY SPIRIT FRUIT IN THOSE COWBOYS’ LIVES. They had some repenting to do to get back right with God and experience God’s pleasure and fruit in their personal lives.

In my experience, tongues is a daily opportunity to surrender my conscious intellectual desperate need to control my life and LET GO AND LET GOD—in a sense. IT is NOT as though Holy Spirit forces my speech muscles to work like a puppet. It is a dance.

Yes, there are times when the supernatural sensations come over me and I do pray with great force and no sense of personally controlling my speech muscles. However, I can still stop and start or modify such at will. I just prefer, wisely, to go with Holy Spirit’s leading in that dance.

And, yes, it was not entirely comfortable for a self-conscious teen the first many times. However, thankfully, Holy Spirit’s PRESENCE was so wonderful, the discomfort was far secondary.

Later on, when the ‘electric goosbumps’ aspect was gone and I was challenged to walk by faith, I had to ignore the discomfort or fear of many aspects and pray in tongues when it was fitting regardless. Of course, that wasn’t for public consumption but was between God and I directly. Nevertheless, those nearby could hear me mumbling along in tongues under my breath and criticize if they so felt like it. I had to ignore that prospect.

Anyway—FWIW, BRO. May God lead you in His will for each day of your walk with Him. Thanks for sharing.

[Quix]

INDEED.

I gave a very logical reply that was quite similar though very long comparatively.

There didn’t seem to be any significant interest in the Biblical truth of my assertions.

The interest seemed to be in throwing rocks regardless of how irrationally.

Logic and Scripture were evidently irrelevant.

[Quix]

Sounds to me like folks have

blackwashing fruit inspecting goggles on.

I’ve known tons of Biblical Fruit of Holy Spirit from Kenneth’s ministry in the lives of about 80 people.

[Quix]

Thanks anyway.

I still have no interest in battering my head against granite cliff walls.

[metmom]

Then step out in faith obediently with sound sequences not from a lanugage you have learned and see how God affirms such efforts with fruit in your life = striving in the flesh

[metmom]

I’ve known tons of Biblical Fruit of Holy Spirit from Kenneth’s ministry in the lives of about 80 people.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit comes from the HOLY SPIRIT using Scripture, NOT Copeland.

Get your eyes off the man and his false teachings and doctrines.

God used Balaam's donkey at one point, too. Jim Jones started out OK too from everything I heard and look where that ended up.

Just because God produces fruit in the lives of believers, does not justify excusing his false and heretical teachings AND you do now know for certain that the fruit in the lives of the people you know is a direct result of Copeland's teachings. It could be from somewhere else. Unless you can determine without any doubt that the only teaching they ever received was only from Copeland alone, there is no way of legitimately being able to credit HIM with the fruit in the lives of those people you know.

[Quix]

.

IT DEPENDS ENTIRELY

On the heart attitude, the spirit such things are done in.

The exact same behaviors can be IN THE SPIRIT or IN THE FLESH depending.

This issue seems to be on what is a real critical issue in terms of spiritual growth and maturity for all of us. About the time we think we understand it--get it--the next lesson begins in another area and we realize we are back in kindergarten on it.

I don't have any confidence that my humble words can influence y'all's understanding on such scores in the least. If Holy Spirit doesn't make the principles and truths real to you, I have no other solution.

I just know what the Biblical truth is on such scores in terms of my own life and experiences through many painful lessons.

[Quix]

Wrong assumptions again.

Inaccurate accusations again.

You didn’t have an observant relationship with the 80 people, I did.

[presently no screen name]

I don't have any confidence that my humble words can influence y'all's understanding on such scores in the least. If Holy Spirit doesn't make the principles and truths real to you, I have no other solution.

And that, Quix, is the bottom line. The Holy Spirit DOES His job but not everyone has ears to hear. They need to keep going around the mountain on the potters wheel until their preconceived worldly ideas are taken out/burnt off so they can hear what HE IS saying.

Some are hell bent they are right - hardened heart - so the HS can't enlighten them on certain things they don't know. So you are right, we can't do a thing.

This is no biggie - speaking in tongues. They don't have to do it but get to do it. However, through this I have seen you ridiculed, talked down to with a critical spirit, questioning you about your own affairs, your students.

And to another poster, ridiculed and snarkiness when he took his/her time to explained things. The HS could have been speaking through someone and they wouldn't know it, thus not receive it.

Pointing out in others, what they perceived as flaws 'feels' better because 'they know'. Lots of stuff for the refiners fire to be burned off.

So a bigger issue was manifested here. And perhaps, why, they don't hear the HS - hardened heart, hardened soil so it can't take the seed in to eventually have fruit.

"You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks".

[Lx]

1. The purpose is not for the individual to understand, but for the individual and those around to be edified.

1 Corinthians 14 Intelligibility in Worship 1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[g] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[h] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[i] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Who is interpreting if your prayer is in tongues?

6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.

2) If speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, how is that the Holy Spirit would cause anyone to say anything offensive to God???

How do you know it's from the Holy Spirit? What if it is a demon speaking inside you? You don't know what you're saying so for all you know, you could be cursing God. Now, I don't think you want to curse God but if you speak in tongues to God and have no idea what you're saying, there's no guarantee you're speaking words inspired by the Holy Spirit.

This also gets to my previous point where there are numerous places in the Bible that have contradictory instructions yet they are both correct. As Les Feldick would say, it's not only important what the Bible says, but also, what it doesn't say.

[caww]

I'd hope no one else here would rush to trash any brother or sister in Christ either

Some would not consider Copeland a "brother" in Christ as you might believe he is , rather one who abuses the things of God, His Sheep , and trashes His written word...which does not reflect the Christ of Christianity. Copeland is one of the fathers of the Toronto/Brownsville "counterfeit" revival movement...which is more than revealing.

The very 'same deception' running rampant throughout the world of NON-Christian cults is now running rampant throughout the Word-Faith/Charismatic movement..... And innocent, impressionable people many of whom are Christians, are falling prey to the savage wolves that Paul warned against in Acts chapter 20...

......"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in 'among you' and will not spare the flock.... Even 'from your own number' men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them..... So be on your guard!.... Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears".

listening to someone and getting to know them from what they've said (and the way they have said it)

and again....".Many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with 'feigned words' make merchandise of you:.... whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2 Peter 2:2-3

... Paul warns us that at the end of the age inside the church there will be teachings of demons. That it will be extremely dangerous to believers who do not know the word correctly and do not watch what they are being taught:...........“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons”..1 Timothy 4:1

The true gospel says,... if you have two coats and see your brother in Christ without one you must give the extra to him...... The prosperity gospel Copeland and other false teachers says,..... "Look at all the coats that God has given me, why has he not given you one?"

I'm not sure I'm overly inclined to follow up much.

Perhaps this will be helpful:

.. "The Lines have been Drawn in the Sand.....On one side of the line there are those who refuse to recognize the Bible as their final authority by falling head-over-heels for new improved gimmicks,... spiritual techniques,... extra-Biblical "revelation knowledge"... and the very words uttered by their "anointed" leaders..... They will defend their leaders...by using the same scripture-twisting tactics as the cults...regardless of what their leaders say or do.

On the other side of the line are the well grounded Christians,... who love the Lord with all their heart;... who stand ready to defend the faith, with Bibles in their hands, against the masters of deception;... the savage wolves who proclaim Jesus Christ in one breath, but deny Him in another"..... (Jude 3; Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4).

http://letusreason.org/Wf37.htm (Let Us Reason.org)

[caww]

There is something spiritually and fundamentally wrong with people who say they are gods.....Copeland, Hinn, Cerullo and many other of these false teachers teach once you’re a Christian you are a God....which goes with the very thing satan said in the garden....and the very reason he was cast out of heaven....it’s beyond amazing that these teachers are telling people they are or will become like God...the following article was especially interesting on this:

And what is the affect of those who call themselves little gods? They believe they can call things into existence, they will be rich and successful like the big god they serve.

Isa. 41:21-24 ....“Present your case, says the LORD.... “Bring forth your strong reasons, says the King of Jacob..... “Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; let them show the former things, what they were, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare to us things to come. .....Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; yes, do good or do evil,.... that we may be dismayed and see it together..... Indeed you are nothing, and your work is nothing; he who chooses you is an abomination.”

Here God challenges those who claim they are in control like God, and those who listen to them instead of the true God are disgusting to him..... For he began his challenge to them all so they can come to a true understanding of God......
V.20 “That they may see and know, and consider and understand together, that the hand of the LORD has done this, and the Holy One of Israel has created it.

Ps. 86:8 “Among the gods there is none like You, O Lord”.

Ps. 95:3 “For the LORD is the great God, and the great King above all gods.”

The Scripture says there exists ONLY ONE GOD; therefore any other that is called god is false by its nature...... Genesis 1 says “In the beginning God.”..... If you were not there with him as him, then you are not God or a god.

As Paul clarifies in1 Cor. 8:5-6 .....“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

The greatest evil is to call oneself God when they are not..... Since there is only one true God no one can ever be in the same class as a creature created by God.... This is a delusion of unprecedented proportions to call oneself a god,... it is the height of arrogance. ...It is the same sin in the beginning that caused Lucifer, the greatest creature God created to fall..... And it is this same deception that will be rampant in the end.

Here’s what the God of the Universe says in Jer.10:11:

“The God’s that have not made heaven and earth will perish.”..... This means any who claims to be God [god] are in the same category according to the one true God. This certainly means all Gods with a small g or a big G.....

Nowhere in Scripture is there a teaching of little gods verses big God, but instead false Gods verses the true God..... In reality, to claim to be a little god is to put one in the category of a false God..... All those who say this will find themselves sharing the same fate of false gods. ....If you are one of those who believes this, its time to reconsider..... You may well receive the same punishment as those other false gods who are not the one true creator.

http://www.letusreason.org/Wf36.htm

[metmom]

Nowhere in Scripture is there a teaching of little gods verses big God, but instead false Gods verses the true God..... In reality, to claim to be a little god is to put one in the category of a false God..... All those who say this will find themselves sharing the same fate of false gods. ....If you are one of those who believes this, its time to reconsider..... You may well receive the same punishment as those other false gods who are not the one true creator.

Needs to be heard and thanks for posting that. I'm sure it will come in handy some day.

[metmom]

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Funny how everyone virtually ignores this verse.

[Quix]

Those are the likely kinds of statements

from those who merely

have arguments

devoid of the relevant authentic Holy Spirit experiences.

[Quix]

font face=corbel> 1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Funny how everyone virtually ignores this verse.

.

The

ONLY
ONES

I see ignoring that verse on this thread

is y'all.

Please point out on the thread ANYWHERE y'all have

noted,

much more so PRAISED GOD FOR PAUL'S ANNOINTED EXHORTATION:

1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,

It's difficult for me to think of a greater job of ignoring and denial of a Biblical truth and exhortation in all my 10+ years on FR.

That dog won't hunt.

[Lx]

1) Your writing style and content is the definition of pretentious. It does NOT make you sound smart or insightful.

2) I hate to tell you but YOU have no clue, no power and no idea who has had an experience with God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. To claim or imply otherwise makes me think of some sort of organic brain damage or, you're doing the Devil's work.

3) Still avoiding mentioning your obsession with UFOs? You practically regurgitate the statements from those threads onto this one.

4) So, did you stop believing in UFOs or are you trying to hide that for the purpose of this thread?

5) I haven't seen someone so needy on FR in a long time.

Here's a sample of what you believe regarding UFOs: Read posts 38-42, 45, 49, 52, 55 and 57.

That is just one link of many.

Why are you avoiding your UFO beliefs, there was a time when no one could shut you up regarding them?

[Quix]

Sure appears to be too likely tooooo true.

Sadly.

Thx thx.