There is no verse in the Bible that states that all believers must speak in tongues. On the contrary, there is 1 Corinthians 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. and 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
There is no verse which says that it's a heavenly language as opposed to a normal earthly language or that it's a prayer language which someone is more effective or powerful than praying in one's native tongue.
On the contrary, James 5:13-18 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.
It's the prayer of a RIGHTEOUS man which is powerful and effective.
There's no verse that even says that speaking in tongues is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit is..... Galatians 5:13-26 13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
MARK 16:17-18: 17 These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.[e] 18 They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”
I didn’t write that. John Wimber didn’t write that. GOD DID.
Do you also hold to verse 16 which says? 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. because it IS part of the same passage. And I've noticed that the RC's like to quote 16 and ignore the rest, and the Charismatics like to quote 17 & 18 and ignore 16. I don't recall that I've ever seen anyone hold to ALL the teaching of that discourse. Not to mention that there is quite the controversy as to whether that passage was actually initially part of Mark.
I find it a rather weak support to hang such major doctrines on for these few reasons along with the teachings of other places in Scripture, particularly the instructions concerning the gifts (tongues) by Paul in 1 Corinthians.
I’m sure the dead horse is very impressed with the continued beatings.
How many times do I have to say
with something before I'm believed?
WHEN I'm attempting dialogue with folks--particularly BELIEVERS--where the GOAL is mutual Christian understanding and unity--I tend to be very quick to note areas of agreement. I WANT the other side to encouragingly understand right away what common ground we share.
I observe no such similar attitude nor behavior on the other side, in these exchanges.
Evidently mutual understanding and agreement in Christian caring and unity are NOT the goals.
IT FEELS like horse-whip practice is the goal.
Nor even, evidently, is rightly dividing the Word of God the goal.
Evidently AGREEMENT is not the goal of the tirades, rants. Otherwise, my AGREEMENT, where I AGREED, would have been noted and warmly accepted, the FIRST time.
BTW, Hint: I don't horse-whip into agreement very well--if ever.
Evidently relentless hurt, angry, bitter spewing is greatly MORE the goal and need.
Well, IF it helps (research says it does NOT help--it just keeps rehearsing it and keeping it churned up), let it all out. I have a LOT of practice as a whipping post. Get it allll out, quite thoroughly. RANT/SPEW, RANT/SPEW to hearts' content.
Just MAYBE Holy Spirit will be easier to hear on such matters, then.
Obviously the problems on these issues are not with me. There must be earlier, other relationships that are still unhealed, unredeemed, unforgiven . . . where persistent woundedness has occurred and fairly intense bitterness has taken root. The doggedly persistent rants and spews are tenaciously dressed and dripping in bitterness and resentment.
I hope there's no thought that truly Holy Spirit edification and enlightenment spring out of bitterness and resentment. There's issues of spiritual TRUTH MUCH more important than tongues greatly in need of MORE attention.
Obviously, the issue is not even tongues. The pique HAS to be deeper, more fundamental and more viscerally primitive. Otherwise, there'd not be SOOOOOOOO much hurt, irrational, angry emotion attached . . . making reasonable, mutually understanding dialogue soooo impossible.
Sigh.
Let folks maintain their death grips on their sugar blinkies of bitterness and resentment until they realize doing so is poisonous to the soul and Christian walk.
On the contrary, there is 1 Corinthians 12:11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. and 1 Corinthians 12:27-3127 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
There is no verse which says that it's a heavenly language as opposed to a normal earthly language or that it's a prayer language which someone is more effective or powerful than praying in one's native tongue.
I don’t find that remotely ACCURATE to the Scripture.
1 Corinthians 14
Intelligibility in Worship
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
“. . . does not speak to people but to God.”
Since when was speaking to God NOT considered prayer? I bet that’s news to God! Since when was speaking a language understood only in Heaven, NOT a "Heavenly language?"
As to more powerful . . . it depends . . . I think HEART-FELT AND FAITH-FILLED = power in prayer—whether in tongues or not in tongues.
However, when I’ve run out of words to say in English but still feel an inner press to pray—that there’s more to accomplish in prayer—tongues is the ONLY option—other than literally merely groaning. Thankfully, I HAVE FOUND that praying in tongues CAN be more powerful than my just prior prayers in English.
MANY TIMES a heavier anointing to do spiritual warfare; to pray for the specifics involved HAS come upon me WHILE praying in tongues—though I didn’t start out in such a heavy anointing when I started praying in tongues.
Those who have not had such an experience are not likely to understand or agree with it. Given that I HAVE had such an experience, it would be foolish for me to deny the reality of it.
And, many times, as I’ve prayed quietly in tongues under my breath, Holy Spirit has brought insights, solutions, prophetic understanding of what the underlying problems involved were etc. Do I get those when I’m not praying in tongues? Certainly. However, they’ve tended to come more quickly and more reliably when I’ve been praying in tongues.
Paul clearly indicated God’s attitude on tongues here:
I COR 14:
5 I wish you could all speak in tongues,
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.
Denial of that the fact of those points from God’s perspective does NOT change God’s perspective.
Sigh.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God . . .
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Do you also hold to verse 16 which says? 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. because it IS part of the same passage.
I think MOST folks hereon know that I believe every word in the whole Bible—including every sentence in Mark 16. It will be interesting to see if the recently discovered first century copy of Mark includes those verses. I accept them as God’s Word regardless. I’m not into picking and choosing which verses are comfortable and convenient for me.
I find it a rather weak support to hang such major doctrines on for these few reasons along with the teachings of other places in Scripture, particularly the instructions concerning the gifts (tongues) by Paul in 1 Corinthians.
Ahhhhhh sooooo . . . unless God hammers something 3-5 times, it shouldn’t be considered God’s Word requiring obedience? Maybe I’m beginning to see part of the problem. Again:
Is it your impression that demons and demonic demonstrations have been on vacation the last 2000 years?
Is it your impression that Christians have been expected to battle demonic forces IN THEIR FLESH?
Is it your impression that Christians are called to wage war with principalities & powers in high places spiritually neutered with their portion of Holy Spirit's miraculous potency in the closet or 'gone fishing?'
That's definitely NOT my Biblical understanding by a great long shot.
And that's DEFINITELY NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE either. It has frequently taken all the praying in tongues, praying for healing; praying for supernatural assistance of various types etc. to do whatever God was calling me to do in various situations.
My understanding of Scripture is that tongues are for believers in some respects/contexts and unbelievers in others.
That sounds like for unbelievers, period, I assume many would think. Not so fast. Stay tuned.
Hmmmmmmm Is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.
He’s merely noting that when one is speaking to God only—e.g. when praying in tongues—ONLY GOD UNDERSTANDS. “No one” else understands—which SHOULD take care of the nonsense that tongues CAN ONLY BE known languages of earth.
So, one verse is emphasizing one type of tongue AND INTERPRETATION and/or a known language in front of unbelievers.
And the other verse is emphasizing a different operation of tongues praying alone to God.
Here we see a verse again emphasizing tongues edifying one’s self—a BELIEVER.
Here we see again . . . clearly . . . for those with eyes to see and ears to hear—PAUL EQUATES the gift of prophecy prophesying in a group with the gifts of tongues AND INTERPRETATION in a group. This passage seems to emphasize tongues and interpretation as well as prophecy edifying both believers and unbelievers.
Sooooo when does tongues help an unbeliever? WHEN there’s interpretation and the unbeliever’s ‘mail is read.’ It also happens when an unbeliever hears a tongues that is his own language and he knows that the speaker does not know his language. This happened with a friend of mine in 3 different Native American tribes on one trip. She just thought she was praying quietly in tongues. Turns out, according to old timers who came up to her afterwards, in each case, she was presenting a summary of the Gospel story in the more ancient and more formal version of each tribal language.
Evidently she should have told the unsaved hearers to ignore the Gospel she’d just shared with them because she was a woman and speaking in tongues. /sarc
Dr Walter Martin—not normally given to applauding such things . . . was touched by a case involving his throat Dr. The Dr had received a message in tongues and interpretation by a couple in a house church prayer meeting about the DR becoming a missionary to Armenia, I think it was. Everything the message in tongues and interpretation shared was true or came true over the following months, to the letter . . . and gave the Dr the confidence to follow his leading to become a powerful missionary to Armenia.
Again—what is the purpose of the tongues—prayer alone to God or ministry to others and the group? Behave accordingly. God uses each accordingly.
That should silence the folks who seemingly mindlessly claim that ALL TONGUES MUST INVOLVED KNOWN LANGUAGES AND INTERPRETATION. Paul just noted that HIS MIND WAS UNFRUITFUL. IT is his spirit that is being built up, edified by Holy Spirit’s conveying the meaning to God via a sequence of sounds Paul does not know as a language.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. {BOY IS THAT AN INCONVENIENT VERSE for cessationists! Sigh} 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
{OF COURSE. As explained above}
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
{INDEED. When they won’t listen to relatively plain Scripture, don’t expect them to listen to sound teaching!}
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
See my explanations above. They should be clear enough for those earnestly seeking God’s clarity on such matters.
At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ.
REALLY? Who said? The Bible doesn’t say that.
Logic doesn’t say that.
Mankind hasn’t changed.
Satan hasn’t Changed
God hasn’t changed!
Given the lawlessness and massive demonic forces unleashed uniquely in the END TIMES, THE GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED FAR MORE NOW THAN EVER IN HISTORY—INCLUDING IN THE ACTS 2 ERA.
All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth.
Where’d you get that notion? Not from Scripture! It’s not in there.
Scripture teaches we are to walk IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS ABUNDANT LIFE, IN HIS HEALING, IN HIS EMPOWERING, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL PROVISION . . . SILVER AND GOLD HAVE I NONE—IN THE NAME OF JESUS—GET UP AND WALK . . . THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .
!NOW!
That Scripture does NOT SAY “shall follow them that believe after they get to Heaven.”
Who needs such in heaven??? Sigh.
There’s no need for healing there!
There’s no need for supernatural provision there.
There’s no need for a banquet in the presence of our enemies there.
There’s no need for supernatural guidance there.