Peter's "last days" speak of revival, when all ISRAEL will be saved. I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I believe it is Acts 2 or 3 that he references Joel's prophecy of the last days before Christ returns. (Visions, dreams, tongues, etc.)
Paul's "last days" speak of apostacy. See 2 Tim. (people having itching ears, turning their ears from the truth, following doctrines of deceit, etc.).
The question is, are they speaking of the same "last days"? They can't be. One is speaking of REVIVAL. The other is speaking of APOSTACY.
I believe Paul's "last days" refers to the last days of the Church the Body of Christ. Everything we have now is by faith. Not by sight. And remember, tongues are for a "sign". To who? Israel. But Israel is blinded and set aside during this age of grace. So what good would tongues and other signs be to us? When the Body of Christ is raptured, signs will once again be forefront. Because Israel is forefront. They will be NECESSARY for tribulation saints.
At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ. All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth. That's why Paul tell us not to be concerned with things on this earth. We have the perfect Word of God, the COMPLETE REVELATION, as He has seen fit to give us. We know the beginning, the middle, and the end. What more could be added as extra-prophetic in order to make his final Amen in Revelation be added to?
I am NOT saying He doesn't perform miracles today. He most certainly does. He heals who He will and He doesn't who He doesn't. It is HIS will, not man's power of laying on of hands that He responds to .
We are told that we know how to be hungry and how to be full, how to be with and how to be without, how to be on top of the world, and how to be down in the ditch (so to speak), and that it is ALL through Christ strengthening us that we iive this life in this age of grace.
I pray you understand what I'm saying here. God Bless! smvoice
I know many charismatics use the Joel prophecy about the last days to justify what they consider the practice of the gifts as it seems to have been increasing in these days, but I agree with you here.
It’s obvious the *last days* prophecy referred to in Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2. We now have the Holy Spirit indwelling the hearts of believers everywhere since He has been poured out on us. I don’t think that that can be used to justify the claims of the apparent sudden rash of signs and wonders people are claiming.
And I hate to have to qualify it also, but that does NOT mean I don’t think they happen. It’s just that I don’t think they happen to the degree that many people claim. I think there’s a real lack of discernment about when it’s genuine and when it’s not that’s the problem.
Dear Brother in Christ, I will explain my thinking on this subject as it applies to the "last days" Paul wrote about in Scripture. And compare them to the "last days" Peter spoke about in Acts 2.
Thanks for your kind reply Dear Sister in Christ.
Peter's "last days" speak of revival, when all ISRAEL will be saved. I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I believe it is Acts 2 or 3 that he references Joel's prophecy of the last days before Christ returns. (Visions, dreams, tongues, etc.)
Are you claiming that Peter's "last days of revival" have run with increasing revival the last 2000 years?
Certainly I believe there will yet be at least another wave of 'revival' before A) The Rapture and/or B) the Great Tribulation. There will also be a great falling away.
And, I believe the children of Israel will be witnessed to by the 2 Witnesses as well as the 144,000.
I personally believe those efforts will be directed primarily toward Israelites. There may be some carry-over toward others who've known the Bible but failed to make the grade spiritually until wayyyyyyy late in the schedule.
Paul's "last days" speak of apostacy. See 2 Tim. (people having itching ears, turning their ears from the truth, following doctrines of deceit, etc.).
I don't know when there has NOT been such goings on. And, certainly this era is INCREASINGLY rife with such stuff. However, GOD WILL STILL LIKELY BRING ABOUT HIS MAJESTIC DEMONSTRATIONS OF HIS POWER; HIS TRUTHS AND HIS REVIVAL prior to lowering the boom wholesale. It's His nature.
The question is, are they speaking of the same "last days"? They can't be. One is speaking of REVIVAL. The other is speaking of APOSTACY.
Of course they can. This church era is a long time. The birth pangs leading up to the Great Tribulation from the formation of Israel to the specific day of the beginning of the Great Tribulation is a long time--decades long.
The Welsh Revival and the Azusa St revival were both against a backdrop of rank apostasy in the culture at large.
God is well able to sweep a region, a State, a Nation, the world with Revival before He lowers the boom horrifically during the Great Tribulation. It might be for a week or a month or 3 months or whatever--He is not limited by world wide apostasy IF HE WANTS TO DO IT 'strongly enough.'
imho, it would be His Nature to trigger a massive last revival; harvest those souls at the peak of their relationships with Him and then let the world sink back into its raging apostasy and go thusly into the Great Tribulation having witnessed a last grand demonstration of His Grace, Mercy and Salvation.
I believe Paul's "last days" refers to the last days of the Church the Body of Christ. Everything we have now is by faith. Not by sight.
Everything? What verse declares that? There is none.
The exhortation is that WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD. And WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN.
Perhaps you missed my exhortation on receiving the gift of tongues above--BY FAITH.
The LAST DAYS also includes the TRIBULATION PERIOD--when, hopefully, the Church is in Heaven at the Married Supper of The Lamb. And, some have, rightly, I think, asserted that The Tribulation period is designed partly to bring Israel back into intimate relationship with Jehovah and their Authentic Messiah.
And remember, tongues are for a "sign". To who? Israel. But Israel is blinded and set aside during this age of grace. So what good would tongues and other signs be to us? When the Body of Christ is raptured, signs will once again be forefront. Because Israel is forefront. They will be NECESSARY for tribulation saints.
Uhhhhhhhhh hello? Is it your impression that demons and demonic demonstrations have been on vacation the last 2000 years?
Is it your impression that Christians have been expected to battle demonic forces IN THEIR FLESH?
Is it your impression that Christians are called to wage war with principalities & powers in high places spiritually neutered with their portion of Holy Spirit's miraculous potency in the closet or 'gone fishing?'
That's definitely NOT my Biblical understanding by a great long shot.
And that's DEFINITELY NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE either. It has frequently taken all the praying in tongues, praying for healing; praying for supernatural assistance of various types etc. to do whatever God was calling me to do in various situations.
My understanding of Scripture is that tongues are for believers in some respects/contexts and unbelievers in others.
So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.
That sounds like for unbelievers, period, I assume many would think. Not so fast. Stay tuned.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
.
Folks who point to I Cor 13 as a rationalization for Cessationism must not have their thinking caps on. For their shabby argument to hold a drop of water, they’d have to consider that INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE HAS ALSO ALREADY PASSED AWAY. . . . that we fully know GOD AND EACH OTHER 100% thoroughly and completely. Cue laughing gif.
Intelligibility in Worship
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
Hmmmmmmm Is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.
He’s merely noting that when one is speaking to God only—e.g. when praying in tongues—ONLY GOD UNDERSTANDS. “No one” else understands—which SHOULD take care of the nonsense that tongues CAN ONLY BE known languages of earth.
So, one verse is emphasizing one type of tongue AND INTERPRETATION and/or a known language in front of unbelievers.
And the other verse is emphasizing a different operation of tongues praying alone to God.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves {NOT UNBELIEVERS},
Here we see a verse again emphasizing tongues edifying one’s self—a BELIEVER.
Here we see again . . . clearly . . . for those with eyes to see and ears to hear—PAUL EQUATES the gift of prophecy prophesying in a group with the gifts of tongues AND INTERPRETATION in a group. This passage seems to emphasize tongues and interpretation as well as prophecy edifying both believers and unbelievers.
Sooooo when does tongues help an unbeliever? WHEN there’s interpretation and the unbeliever’s ‘mail is read.’ It also happens when an unbeliever hears a tongues that is his own language and he knows that the speaker does not know his language. This happened with a friend of mine in 3 different Native American tribes on one trip. She just thought she was praying quietly in tongues. Turns out, according to old timers who came up to her afterwards, in each case, she was presenting a summary of the Gospel story in the more ancient and more formal version of each tribal language.
Evidently she should have told the unsaved hearers to ignore the Gospel she’d just shared with them because she was a woman and speaking in tongues. /sarc
Dr Walter Martin—not normally given to applauding such things . . . was touched by a case involving his throat Dr. The Dr had received a message in tongues and interpretation by a couple in a house church prayer meeting about the DR becoming a missionary to Armenia, I think it was. Everything the message in tongues and interpretation shared was true or came true over the following months, to the letter . . . and gave the Dr the confidence to follow his leading to become a powerful missionary to Armenia.
Again—what is the purpose of the tongues—prayer alone to God or ministry to others and the group? Behave accordingly. God uses each accordingly.
That should silence the folks who seemingly mindlessly claim that ALL TONGUES MUST INVOLVED KNOWN LANGUAGES AND INTERPRETATION. Paul just noted that HIS MIND WAS UNFRUITFUL. IT is his spirit that is being built up, edified by Holy Spirit’s conveying the meaning to God via a sequence of sounds Paul does not know as a language.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. {BOY IS THAT AN INCONVENIENT VERSE for cessationists! Sigh} 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. {OF COURSE. As explained above} 20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues {INDEED. When they won’t listen to relatively plain Scripture, don’t expect them to listen to sound teaching!} 22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
See my explanations above. They should be clear enough for those earnestly seeking God’s clarity on such matters.
At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ.
REALLY? Who said? The Bible doesn’t say that.
Logic doesn’t say that.
Mankind hasn’t changed.
Satan hasn’t Changed
God hasn’t changed!
Given the lawlessness and massive demonic forces unleashed uniquely in the END TIMES, THE GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED FAR MORE NOW THAN EVER IN HISTORY—INCLUDING IN THE ACTS 2 ERA.
All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth.
Where’d you get that notion? Not from Scripture! It’s not in there.
Scripture teaches we are to walk IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS ABUNDANT LIFE, IN HIS HEALING, IN HIS EMPOWERING, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL PROVISION . . . SILVER AND GOLD HAVE I NONE—IN THE NAME OF JESUS—GET UP AND WALK . . . THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .
!NOW!
That Scripture does NOT SAY “shall follow them that believe after they get to Heaven.”
Who needs such in heaven??? Sigh.
There’s no need for healing there!
There’s no need for supernatural provision there.
There’s no need for a banquet in the presence of our enemies there.
There’s no need for supernatural guidance there.
That's why Paul tell us not to be concerned with things on this earth.
Oh, really? There’s no evidence in Scripture that’s why Paul said such a thing!
Paul talks about keeping our eyes on Christ . . . on The Prize . . . and not getting bogged down by the dreadful and deceitful things of the earth. He’s talking about our proper focus while running the race. That has nothing to do with spiritual gifts . . . except perhaps that those who keep their eyes on Jesus are more powerfully anointed in their spiritual giftings.
We have the perfect Word of God,
Actually, we don’t. We have flawed translations. The original autographs are not available.
the COMPLETE REVELATION, as He has seen fit to give us. We know the beginning, the middle, and the end.
Yeah, we have sufficient Word to establish and maintain our end of an intimate walk with God well able to land us in Heaven by His Grace, Blood and Spirit. Though John noted that probably the world could not contain all the books necessary to describe all Christ said and did. And, we do know something of the beginning, middle and end.
However, we do NOT know–from strictly the printed word--who to marry vs who not to marry;
Which house to buy or not buy;
Which job to take or not take;
Which city to move to or not move to;
Which stranger to reach out to with the Gospel or not reach out to;
. . .
What more could be added as extra-prophetic in order to make his final Amen in Revelation be added to?
There’s no need to add rebelliously to Revelation or anything else in Scripture AS ENSCRIPTURATED SCRIPTURE.
However,
Cessationists were CONSISTENT on that score—their churches would never ever hear another sermon. All they’d do is stand up and read Scripture to one another. And if they had anything to say to one another, they’d just quote Bible verses to one another.
Sigh.
I am NOT saying He doesn't perform miracles today. He most certainly does. He heals who He will and He doesn't who He doesn't. It is HIS will, not man's power of laying on of hands that He responds to .
Yes and no. Most times, if hands are NOT laid on . . . or a word of knowledge is not pronounced over someone, they don’t get healed.
God DOES SOMEWHAT restrict His miracles to the operations of His Spirit THROUGH His gifted kids. He chooses to do it that way MOST OF THE TIME. It IS HIS design. THAT IS HIS delight. CERTAINLY IT IS ALL HIS DOING directly and through His kids. Certainly everything good comes from above as the Bible says.
We are told that we know how to be hungry and how to be full, how to be with and how to be without, how to be on top of the world, and how to be down in the ditch (so to speak), and that it is ALL through Christ strengthening us that we live this life in this age of grace.
AMEN. TRUE. Doesn’t have anything to do with minimizing the Gifts of Holy Spirit in this age, however.
Paul said that he would that ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES. Rationalizing that away is NOT BIBLICAL.
I pray you understand what I'm saying here. God Bless! smvoice
158 posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 4:17:09 PM by smvoice
I think I did. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.