Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[Quix]

No. I won’t bother doing that.

God knows.

I know.

That’s sufficient.

[Quix]

IF

you think I’m going to slavishly

comply with

yours

or any expert’s tips

then you evidently don’t have much of a clue about me . . .

after how many years?

[metmom]

I could probably document a couple or more dozen pages of my lines in this thread alone that have been totally ignored . . . that were quite substantive and often with Biblical support.

Well, unless they have Biblical support, don't bother substantiating them. Limit yourself to the ones that DO have it.

Besides, they have not been "totally ignored". I daresay that we could go through this thread post by post and find every objection of yours responded to by someone here, with Scripture no less.

Do not give yourself too much credit for your spiritual insight and maturity. Take heed that you stand, lest you fall.

Yeah, we know. You've had years of experience over the far reaches of the planet, with all kinds of people and have seen it all and know it all.

I'm sorry that we're not more in awe of your spiritual prowess and expertise but when most of what you're relying on to back yourself up is based not on Scripture but experience (aka the traditions of men), then you are NOT going to find a audience of willing hearers and followers.

I don't doubt that many of the experiences you've been through actually happened or happened as you say. What I do doubt is your interpretation of them or their validity as being from God, simply because there is no solid Scriptural support for them in the Bible.

And when your best retort is a image of a bunny with a roll of toilet paper on its head and whining that "Sometimes it's good to bring absolutely nothing to the intellectual table", your credibility takes a nosedive from which it may never recover.

We've expressed some concerns, valid by your own admission in many cases, of the abuses and excesses of the charismatic/pentecostal movement and get that in response?

Before you finally take off in an indignant huff because we don't recognize your spiritual giantness, do a pride check and see if your ego isn't getting in the way of you seeing clearly. The offense that you appear to be taking because we aren't agreeing with you is sending off huge warning flags and red lights that something is NOT right in your opinion of yourself.

[caww]

after how many years?

Age nor years lived have nothing to do with if one is in error. There are many who have moved away from false teachings they once believed when they have seen the falsehood of....so it makes no difference how many years ones beliefs have been wrong...apart from the fact the stronghold is deeper and does not let loose lightly....it takes time for them to entrench and it takes time to loosen when falsehoods have been practiced for many years.

[caww]

Then do so...and while doing that list the respones which were given at length as well.

[Quix]

NOPE.

WRONG.

[Quix]

WRONG AGAIN.

Given how thoroughly they were ignored the first time . . . I have no intention of ANOTHER exercise in futility.

I may be old and I may be a lot of things but I’m not

THAT STUPID.

[caww]

It's pretty evident from the get go of this thread your defensive posture remains.....it took almost 80 posts before you offered scripture and when you did you trounced on everyone for not considering when in fact they addressed those scriptures at length as the posts following reflect.

I agree with you that it's not about hearing you, as you stated, as most do. ...but you refer to them not hearing when they disagree with what you want them to believe...and again you are right to say they don't agree.

Yet you still maintain the fact you are not heard and the thread continually addresses and reponds that you were.

So what really is this about Quix? You need to clarify that as you're coming from both directions....you're heard...then you're not heard....by your own words ...so which is it?

IMO you know you're heard and you also know it's not ageed with...and that's what's at the heart. Your desire for others to agree with you.

[caww]

I have no intention of ANOTHER exercise in futility

If you mean by that statment that others were not in agreement with what you first stated...then fine. We know where the truth was revealed.....if you have nothing more to present to support your position then the discussion is indeed over and your points were not taken as truth. I'm not interested in whining about being heard or not. You were and the thread evidences this completely.

[Quix]

Thanks for yet more proof that my words don’t register very well.

It’s NOT about agreement vs nonagreement.

That’s a rationalized straw dog.

[Quix]

If we’re going to rank, collate, tabulate and weigh

whining . . .

I have no doubt which side will have the fullest warehouses.

[Quix]

It’s usually wise to be

very cautious about wielding double edged swords.

[boatbums]

Yes, I understand, Do You? You are the one that doesn’t believe, I DO!

I am the "one" that doesn't believe what, exactly? Jesus said quite clearly in that passage in John 9, that the man blind from birth was NOT because of his sin or those of his parents, but so that God would be glorified. This incident happened after the altercation Jesus had with the religious leaders where they tried to stone him for saying he was equal to God by forgiving sins. The blind beggar could NOT see Jesus, but Jesus saw him and when his disciples asked Jesus why the man was born blind, he very clearly said so that God would be glorified and his power made manifest. When the beggar was blind no more, he went about telling everyone of the miracle and that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

The point was that sickness is not always because of particular sins but that God is over all and when he allows sickness, he has a purpose. Sometimes that purpose is to not take it away, to not heal it, and that seems to be what "faith-healers" and those that promote their works often miss. As to whether or not there are specific people who have the first-century "gift" of healing, I say look at what they do, how they do it, who they use to demonstrate this supposed power, who gets the glory, and how they deal with people who do not respond to their actions. In most cases, the sick person is blamed for the failure of the faith healer. If people were honest about it, they would understand that God no longer uses men with this power, that his Word is the standard by which to measure the source of the power and that it is God, alone, who heals or does not heal - all for HIS glory.

Many people who are within the upper echelons of this movement are characterized by things that SHOULD give a spiritually mature Christian pause. From the site http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/wimber/general.htm, we learn:

"One of the most serious (and blasphemous) aspects of teachers like Wimber is that they are ready and willing to diminish the Lord Jesus Christ in their desperation to find some shred of biblical support for what they do ... he [Wimber] claims the ministry of Christ as a pattern for his own work. In the most explicit way he denies our Lord's divine character, detracting from His power and glory and reducing Him virtually to the level of an ordinary person. According to Wimber, Christ did not possess the personal power to read thoughts or to know the outcome of events." Wimber's motive in downgrading the person and work of Christ appeared to be "that he wants to make Christ our example not only for healing, but also for receiving 'words of knowledge' -- direct impressions and commands from God ... Wimber empties the Lord Jesus Christ of His divine attributes -- particularly His foreknowledge -- making Him totally dependent upon the Father for both information and orders concerning His activities moment by moment ... Wimber repeatedly emphasizes this 'limited' divinity of Jesus as he strives to make Him a person who we can legitimately imitate in every respect, including the receiving of intuitions from God, and the performing of healing works" (Masters, pp. 46-47 -- see Col. 1:15,19; 2:3,9; Heb. 1:3; Jn. 1:14; 6:64; 16:30 for Biblical refutation of Wimber's theology). Wimber's teaching was "anti-Christian in his abuse of Christ, despising and disregarding His divinity and glory in order to present Him as a 'humanized' example of healing techniques which may be copied in our day" (Masters, p. 51).

Wimber's doctrine of Demonology was thoroughly unscriptural; he saw demons behind many physical illnesses, and most emotional problems, entering into people, both lost and saved, in varying degrees, either for "possession" or "oppression," so as to control all or some aspects of their lives. "There is no biblical basis for the notion that demons are free to cause illnesses outside the context of full demon possession. [And the power of Satan to enter and "possess" souls uninvited; i.e., at the whim of the demon, was ended at Christ's resurrection.] The only case in the Bible of a person who suffered from an illness caused by Satan without being demon possessed, is that of Job" (Masters, p. 86).

But even then, Satan had to secure permission from God, which would indicate that Satan and his demons have no power to inflict illnesses in the ordinary course of events. To treat illnesses on the basis of a demon needing to be expelled from a particular organ, as Wimber taught, is an idea derived from pagan religious cults and/or the priestcraft of Rome, not from the Bible. Believers will certainly do battle with the wiles and temptations wrought by Satan, "but nowhere in the New Testament is temptation resisted by a process of commanding demons to loose their hold or leave a Christian's mind or body. Satan is resisted by being denied success in the temptation. Or if he mounts an attack of depressive suggestions, he is resisted as the believer strives to keep hold of the comfort and promises of God's Word" (Masters, p. 92).

Professor Verna Wright, M.D., Rheumatology, concluded that the great dangers of Wimber's "miraculous healing teaching" are: (1) "it discredits the person of Christ because of the very obvious failures, when we claim to serve a Savior Who never fails"; (2) "it undermines the Word, because it elevates a new form of 'revelation' -- so-called words of knowledge or prophecy"; (3) "it deceives Christians and breeds a race of gullible believers, taken in by virtually anything"; (4) "it increases the agony of suffering"; (5) "it removes Christian comfort"; and (6) "it diminishes Christian testimony." (Cited in Masters, p. 227)

Wimber always placed himself and his ministry above criticism; "... he equates those who measure a practice or ministry by Scripture with the unbelieving scribes. This effectively insulates his teaching and practice from Scriptural critique. He is equating his ministry with non-recognition of the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit ... Wimber is hiding behind a facade of true adherence to the moving of the Spirit of God in order to insulate his theology and practices from those who would unravel the facade with God's Word. At the same time, he equates anyone that would challenge that facade with those who did not recognize Jesus' authority and work. This is a cult mentality that does not address the real issue: whether or not these practices and ideas are biblical" (MS, p. 23-24).

So, you say you understand the point of John 9 and question my understanding AND my belief. Perhaps, it is NOT me that is lacking in faith. Those who MUST have experience to convince them of God's working set themselves up for deception and ultimately, control by forces NOT from God.

[boatbums]

WHEN . . . comments obviously do not communicate seemingly at all and . . . comments are seemingly not respected at all it would appear that pics and gifs are all that’s left. And that’s not acceptable either. Tough tacos. BTW, WHEN Scriptures are used in a non-sequitur, straw dog sort of way . . . it is fitting and accurate to say so.

But this is a FORUM where opinions can be discussed. As a frequent recipient of those inane cartoons sans comment, you should be more than aware that they are and SHOULD be ignored. Anyone who doesn't care enough to say why they disagree doesn't deserve recognition for adding to the dialog. That kind of comment is NOT fitting nor accurate because it fails to say what about the post is non sequitor or what makes it a "straw dog". I'd hate to see you go along that path of the tomato tossers from the cheap seats.

[Quix]

GREAT! Help yourself.

Still missing the point.

Still not showing the least evidence of understanding my words etc.

[metmom]

boatbums

Quix, how many times do we need to say that we DO understand what you're getting at but don't agree with it.

Is the only way we can convince you that we understand what you're saying is to agree with you? Does our disagreement tell you that we don't understand? Really?

Is agreeing with you really the only way to convince you that we understand what you're saying? Are you that convinced that you are right?

Could you even entertain the notion that you might be wrong? We've provided plenty of Scripture for you to use in that consideration. Or are you so hung up on signs and gifts and healing and tongues that you can't let go?

What's your faith in Quix? Christ or signs?

[Quix]

How many times do I have to say . . .

I don't recall seeing a single shred of evidence that y'all have understood a single sentence of what I've written--particularly about where I have disagreed but 97% mostly also where I've agreed.

Fantasies about such are not reality.

The issue is not the disagreement.

The issue is the seemingly blanket stonewalling abject refusal to seemingly even let some simple language register on y'all's consciousness.

This sentence is yet more PROOF

that I've not been understood a microgram's worth:

What's your faith in Quix? Christ or signs?

It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.
It's NOT about disagreement.

I'm NOT that stupid a psychologist. I know y'all fairly well. I wouldn't predict that y'all would change toward agreement with me short of a burning bush visitation by God Almighty forcefully rewiring y'all's synapses. I'm not so ignorant as to EXPECT a shred of agreement.

I've not expected any such on the whole thread. The MOST I've had fantasies about was that there MIGHT be 1-3% better communication this thread than the last similar exercises in abject futility. Now THAT I was very stupid to hope for.

[smvoice]

Are you interested in all in Scripture and time lines in the Bible, Quix? Especially the Book of Acts, where the transition from law to grace, from a kingdom of believers (Israel) to a body of believers (the Church the body of Christ), from the earthly to the heavenly, from the old to the new, takes place?

Because, if you are at all interested in God's timetable for man, then the Scriptures give you the answers you are fighting so hard against. If you are just interested in signs, wonders and miracles, then all the Scriptures in the world won't be enough to PROVE to you that there was a reason for them and there will be a reason for them again, but during this age of grace, they have been withdrawn. He is not seeking an earthly kingdom of believers right now. He is seeking a body of believers right now. Who are blessed with all spiritual blessings IN HEAVENLY PLACES. Earthly signs, wonders and miracles are for an earthly people. Israel. They are His prophesied earthly kingdom of priests and will be a blessing to all nations, when He returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. If they are temporarily blinded and set aside, then what about those miracles, signs, and wonders for them? Do you think God just transfered them to the body of Christ? For what reason? Really. For what reason would He do that? We are to "set our affection on things which are ABOVE, NOT on things on THE EARTH." Col. 3:1,2. Things on the earth would be miracles, signs and wonders. Meant for an earthly people who must endure to the end to go into the Kingdom.

Do you think you will be going through the tribulation and need those things in order to endure to the end?

And lest you believe that God is desiring us to spend our time working on this world to make it fit for Christ's return, let me remind you of this Scripture. "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this PRESENT EVIL WORLD, according TO THE WILL OF GOD and our Father."(Gal.1:4)

Notice, Paul did NOT say that God has commanded us to FIX this present evil world, or that we have been given power to transform this present evil world. Only that He will DELIVER us from this present evil world.

Our job is to preach the gospel of the grace of God in this present evil world. To be amassadors for Christ, preaching the reconciliation of God and man through the finished work of Christ. And also to reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE. So that when the truth starts going off the rails, it can be restored, WITH SCRIPTURE, so we can get on with our job.

[Quix]

More barking up the wrong tree

yet again.

[smvoice]

Now would that be a straw tree I’m barking up? And no Scripture to defend your position, yet again. Show me a miracle. Give me some Scripture to try and understand your beliefs.