| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 03/05/2012 8:20:32 PM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
View Replies = “No replies.”
Imagine that.....
Got some Scripture to support that?
Silly me, I thought making heaven was by grace through faith in Christ. I didn't realize we had to be perfect or do it on your terms and conditions.
You're asking for something which doesn't ,of course, exist. Though many false teachings do take snippets from the scriptures and connect these to say what they want. When challenged to take these within the context of what's written their arguments fail completely..as they should.
Thereafter the "standard" responses ensue....denial, emotional outbursts, and posts bearing nothing of substance.
As for proof of healing's....interesting is there's overwhelming documentation of those who were claimed healed but 'on examination when followed up' it simply hasn't been case.
Another interesting find is that many who claim healings from these healers were found to be already on the mend prior to the healing service and would have been well regardless of their attendance.
Additionally are those sad and disturbing cases where people have died and some studies have indicated there's more unnecessary deaths from people who claim healings but weren't, stopped their treatments and died thereafter. Apparently percentages of unnecessary deaths among healers is greater than all other areas of health related groups who treat the ill.
It's very interesting to attempt to locate proofs of healings on line....that have been validated as such....they're significantly small numbers compared to the many otherwise reported as failures. So in light of the "thousands" who attend these healing services you'd think there would be substantial records and validations....it's simply not the case at all.
New International Version (©1984)
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.”
New International Version (©1984)
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
New International Version (©1984)
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Most folks realize from The Lord’s prayer
that
IF
we want to BE FORGIVEN,
we MUST FORGIVE ALL.
I’m amazed at the number of Scriptures folks seem to gleefully rip out of The Bible.
Nor would they want to get me started. The decent into pure evil was astounding. The church went from filled with the Holy Spirit to ice cold demonic evil.
Here's some leading tips often given to those who desire being heard in debates and or presentations of their positions, along with other helpful suggestions at the link which might be advantageous to review:
Don't ramble..... This will lead to your message not being understood or taken seriously
Do not whine or plead...... Neither is guaranteed to instill respect or interest in the listener. If you are very upset, excuse yourself and come back to the discussion later when you have had a chance to think it through.
Be careful with humor...... While a little humor injected into what you are discussing can be very effective,..... do not take it too far and do not rely on it as a crutch to cover up the hard-to-say things...... If you keep giggling and joking, your communication will not be taken seriously.
http://www.wikihow.com/Communicate-Effectively
Well then, I guess no one can be saved before they've forgiven everyone, even God.
That's got to be interesting to observe - to watch someone do something they aren't capable of yet because they don't have the ability to do so.
Here, old covenant Scripture for old covenant thinking.
Psalm 103:10-14 10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. 11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; 12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. 14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
It's more than disturbing how people allow themselves to forgo any common sense in what he puts out there for them to swallow....it's poisoning the hearts, minds and souls of so many and damaging the true gospel message you simply never hear him give.
I have no problem saying he is willingly being used by the enemy of men's souls. Hinn fits every definition of a false teacher given in the scriptures. Jesus had much to say to such ones. Moreso many warnings to us about such ones as Hinn.
THANKS for your gracious exhortation and link.
However. . .
for more than 40 years . . .
folks have relatively rarely had problems UNDERSTANDING what I was trying to say.
The problems have persistently
GREATLY MORE
been a refusal to come to grips with the truth of what I’ve said.
And that’s been abundantly clear on this thread, too.
When you start posting Scripture, get back to us about the truth of what you said.
New International Version (©1984)
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
New Living Translation (©2007)
But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too.”
New International Version (©1984)
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
New Living Translation (©2007)
“If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
New International Version (©1984)
But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
New Living Translation (©2007)
But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Thanks for sharing that. It’s pretty rare to find someone who actually sat under his teaching and knew what it was like before and after, and saw the transition as it occurred.
There’s a problem within charismatic circles and I expect to see it happen in regard to what you shared.
It’s this.
That if someone says something good about a faith healer or self-proclaimed man of God or someone like Hinn, they are accurate and right and don’t need verification. We are just expected to believe all sources and take everything at face value and believe it all.
If someone speaks against them, or exposes their fraud, then they’re lying, they have an axe to grind, they don’t have discernment, you can’t trust everything you read on the internet, all kinds of levels of proof are demanded, yada, yada, yada.
How to Set Yourself Up for Deception 101.
Plugging your ears and singing *La, la, la, la, ....laaaaa...... I can’t hear youuuuuuuu.....* is NOT spiritual maturity.
Well you shouldn't be...this is profoundly done by many of the teachings among Pentecostalism and other faiths gone amok. They've left the right path and Jesus said this would happen by those "among" us. There are wolves among the sheep and seek to devour them ....step by step.
Further he warned us clearly that many false teachers would attempt to deceive by signs and wonders, and that many would follow these teachers into placing their faith in their "experiences" over that of "believing without seeing" who go by the hundreds and thousands to see these charlatans and false teachers.
Interesting is the warning of Martin Luther is equally applicable in our own day:
"If seduction and darkness were again to begin through the wrath and decree of God... (as will happen after our days, it is to be feared),.... and the devil were to begin to perform signs through some false prophet... and perhaps cure a sick person,... you would no doubt see the mob press to espouse the cause in such a way that no preaching or warning would be of any avail....... we should accord them neither attention nor acceptance though it were to snow miracles."
Scripture warnings are very clear:
....."But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber."....2 Pet 2:1-3
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."...2 Tim 4:3-4
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons..."...1 Tim. 4:1
http://ecclesia.org/truth/defending.html.... States in the article.
"What happened to the Thinking Christian"
"In what can properly be viewed as "religious empiricism," the underlying message of modern Evangelicalism is that "if it feels good, believe it." Though such an attitude is mistaken as the exercise of faith, it is actually the unbelief of humanism in disguise. Indeed, the basic tenet of the existential belief system is that "man is the measure of all things," and that 'his own experiences' are therefore both the origin and the validation of truth.
However, the primary problem with this mystical approach to truth, which incidentally lies at the heart of the collective New Age impulse to "look within," is that 'experiential perception' varies greatly from person to person, and cannot be either validated or falsified in and of itself. ....Therefore, since truth is supposedly derived from personal experience, then it too must be relative, thus rendering the very concept of truth itself indefinable and consequently utterly meaningless."
Thanks for documenting yet again
the seeming impossibility of understanding what I say.
Might be because it's not seen as truth Quix.
Truth will always cause division...always. Jesus said it would be so. Therefore someone is wrong in what they're trying to deliver......Therefore to find the truth debate and scripture is necessary to determine where truth should prevail.
Division has been the history of the church....and evidences there is much which counterfeits the truth by men and woman seeking followers of "their kind" so to speak.
....the enemy of men's souls knows these days are headed toward the finish line...and as that approaches the "climate" in the Christian community is much about "rescuing " those taken in by false doctrines and teachings. Equally as much standing against those teachings so that none are lost..and that includes those who are Christian but lost inside these false teachings.....it's time to come out from among them!
I can see from this thread that people have come to terms of what the truth is....and though do indeed understand your position...they do not see it as the truth...and neither do I.
It's not a case of posters "refusal" to understand truth. It's what you're attempting to persuade is not seen as truth, and that with scriptures fully supporting their positions.
Much of the time, my words have been totally ignored and not entered into as part of the dialogue at all.
Zip
Nadda.
Impressive.
That's not true ...especially when you've had something of substance to say Quix.
The problem arises when you fo off on tangents that have nothing to do with the topic and you appear to get carried away on an emotional rollercoaster.....then we have to wait until that passes...and unfortunately the dialogue does move forward as is normal on any thread.
That puts you in a position of catching up to the topic...and staying with it.
BTW...you’re whining now about not being heard....and what did the “tips” say not to do?
I could probably document a couple or more dozen pages of my lines in this thread alone that have been totally ignored . . . that were quite substantive and often with Biblical support.
That dog won’t hunt.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.