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To: Petrosius
The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

I've had more than enough FRoman Catholics quote James at us and tell us that they'll know when they get there whether they've made it or not.

That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

As a matter of fact, there's this little tidbit from the Council of Trent.

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

237 posted on 02/03/2012 1:47:19 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

Baptism and, if after baptism one were to break communion with God through serious sin, confession yes. But these are the work of God by which his justice is infused into us. Works however, as I have shown by the quotes from the Council of Trent, do not merit us salvation. The worth of works comes after our gratuitous salvation. From the Council of Trent:

CHAPTER XVI.
On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.

Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.

Everything that is said about works refers to those who have already been justified.

And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Those in Purgatory have already won salvation and entrance into Heaven through the merits of Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross. I would redirect you to the quote from Chapter VIII of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent that I posted in #236.

I would ask you to address what the Catholic Church actually teaches rather than what you might think that average Catholics might believe. There are many Catholics who do not fully understand Catholic teaching just as it is clear that Martin Luther, himself a priest, did not completely understand the Catholic theology he was charged to teach. Additionally, it is easy to misunderstand what others might be saying.

That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

You will not find any such teaching in any documents of the Catholic Church, despite what any Catholic layman may or may not have told you.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

I will remind you that when Catholics speak of faith they mean intellectual assent. You yourself said that this was not enough. The "movement of his own will" is the same as what you described:

When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

I thought that you said that intellectual assent, i.e."only to believe", is not enough. Is only to believe without having to turn the heart and will to God through observing the Commandments enough for salvation? This is what this canon is condemning.

CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

Again, are you saying that justification is only a forensic declaration by God, that God does not effect a change in us by his infusion into us of grace and charity? This infusion of grace and charity is his work, not ours.

242 posted on 02/03/2012 2:45:22 PM PST by Petrosius
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