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To: caww
Furthermore...the catholic church forbid the reading of scriptures Catholicism is not even remotely close to the early church they so often claim as their beginning,.....they left and forfeited that years ago and to this day continue to deceive and mis-lead it's members

The Catholic church did not forbid anyone to read scripture. Think about it, in the early centuries most people couldn't read at all and those who could, could only read their own language. Bibles were hand written by Catholic monks and were therefore extremely expensive. Only royalty, the very wealthy, and libraries could afford them. It wasn't until the 1500's that a printed version was available that people could afford and there weren't real many of those. Catholicism dates from the time of Christ and yes, they teach the same thing now that the earliest church taught. Don't forget that Christ promised the church that He would be with her until the end of time. She was not apostate until the protestants came along to save her, she was hale and hearty throughout history. Because the Catholic church is infallible, she cannot teach that which is in error, nor does she. You say that she deceives her members....explain how please, I say its impossible. You say that the bible was in play long before the Catholic church...let me point out that only the old testament existed with the Jewish religion and that the new testament was compiled by the Catholic church as she grew during the time that the new testament was being written. Without the Catholic church, we would not have a bible. While the church itself did not write the bible, she certainly collected the various letters, parables, stories etc. which make up the book. There was no one else there....the apostles, disciples and followers were the beginnings of the Catholic church and they, acting like the new organization that they were, wrote things down in an orderly fashion to preserve them for posterity....what's so hard for you to understand???

75 posted on 01/23/2012 9:55:46 AM PST by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: terycarl
The Catholic church did not forbid anyone to read scripture.

Oh really....these catholic sources say otherwise:

The Council of Toulouse (1229) and Tarragona (1234) forbade the laity to read the vernacular translations of the Bible.

Pius IV required the bishops to refuse lay persons leave to read .."even Catholic versions of the Scripture",... unless their confessors or parish priests judged that such readings was likely to prove beneficial.’.

(Addis and Arnold, Catholic Dictionary, The Catholic Publications Society Co., N.Y., 1887, p. 82).

The following two quotations are taken from the Council of Toulouse and the Council of Trent in the thirteenth and sixteenth century respectively:

‘We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old and the New Testament; unless anyone from the motives of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin;..... but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.’

(Edward Peters. Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Council of Toulouse, 1229, Canon 14, p 195.)

‘Since it is clear from experience that if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good, the matter is in this respect left to the judgment of the bishop or inquisitor, who may with the advice of the pastor or confessor permit the reading of the Sacred Books translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors to those who they know will derive from such reading no harm but rather an increase of faith and piety, which permission they must have in writing.

Those, however, who presume to read or possess them without such permission may not receive absolution from their sins till they have handed them over to the ordinary. Bookdealers who sell or in any other way supply Bibles written in the vernacular to anyone who has not this permission, shall lose the price of the books, which is to be applied by the bishop to pious purposes, and in keeping with the nature of the crime they shall be subject to other penalties which are left to the judgment of the same bishop. Regulars who have not the permission of their superiors may not read or purchase them.’

(Council of Trent: Rules on Prohibited Books, approved by Pope Pius IV, 1564).

77 posted on 01/23/2012 10:34:46 AM PST by caww
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To: terycarl
Catholicism dates from the time of Christ and yes, they teach the same thing now that the earliest church taught.

Wrong...prove the churches of Rome were catholic.....

The churches of the earliest centuries didn't operate as the Roman Catholic Church operates today...not by any means..... Catholicism might teach and assume that something a bishop or council did in the past is an example of the Roman Catholic Church doing something. But it's mis-leading and unreasonable to assume that every one of these bishops or councils of the past was Roman Catholic.

Christ and the apostles defined the church as either a local assembly ....... or the spiritual entity consisting of all believers.

(1 Corinthians 16:19, Revelation 2-3)...(Ephesians 5:23-32, Revelation 19:7-9).

..... but never as a worldwide denomination, much less a worldwide denomination centered in Rome and led by a Pope. The apostles taught that saving grace isn't based on works.....

(Acts 15:9-11, Romans 4:4-16, 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9)

78 posted on 01/23/2012 10:52:51 AM PST by caww
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