Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: CynicalBear

Yes, let’s look at Luke.

The they, are those who were eyewitness from the beginning.
The us, would be those to whom THEY had delivered those things which are most assuredly believed among us.

Luke does not claim here to be an eyewitness, he claims to have learned what they believe from eyewitnesses.

As for Mark, you do what is so often done by protestants in these discussions. I said that Mark was a companion of Peter and not an eyewitness.

An eyewitness as in one who walked with Jesus.

We don’t hear of Mark until Acts, where we learn of his mother. When Peter refers to him as my son, one possibility is that Peter baptized him and the reference was one of affection and not actual “parentage” of any sort.

We don’t know for certain that this same Mark is the one who wrote the gospel bearing his name.

What you have written regarding any familial relationship between Peter and Mark is not from the NT, but early church writers. And among them there is some disagreement about Mark, the companion of Peter and Mark the Evangelist who wrote the gospel.

Either way, I said in my post this all assumes that the authors of the those gospels are indeed who it is claimed they are.

To some, the authors are unknown and the attribution to them is an early church tradition.


779 posted on 01/23/2012 8:21:43 AM PST by Jvette
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 758 | View Replies ]


To: Jvette
I’ll try to put this another way. If you were a judge would you take the testimony of an eyewitness over someone who heard the story after told by three different people? Would you take the testimony of a person who the eyewitness related the events within minutes over someone who heard the story through several different people?

The account of those who were personally with Christ would be most reliable and the account of those who spent their lives with the apostles will be more authoritative than someone 100 or 200 years later.

786 posted on 01/23/2012 9:00:17 AM PST by CynicalBear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 779 | View Replies ]

To: Jvette; CynicalBear
Why does it seem like Catholics are so quick to discount the reliability and authority of the Bible??? From the site http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html:

How could the early Christian community honor the Gospels as authoritative unless they knew who had written them? Even granting such a late date as some critics surmise, it is doubtful that the Gospels could have gotten anywhere unless they were certainly attributable to someone who was recognized as knowing what they were writing about. On the other hand, I must say that some critics assume a high degree of gullibility in the first-century church.

To this end, Hengel [CarMoo.Int, 66] has argued that the Gospels must have received their titles immediately - not in the second century. For an anonymous author to have penned a Gospel, and have it accepted as from the hand of one of the Quartet or any authoritative person, would have required them to first produce the Gospel, then present it as the work of another; they would have to concoct some story as to how it came peculiarly to be in their possession; get around the problem of why a work by such a person disappeared or was previously unknown; then get the church at large, first in his area and then throughout the Roman Empire (and would not the claimed discovery of such a document cause a sensation, and controversy?), to accept this work as genuine.

Can any critic explain how these logistic difficulties were overcome? I have noted that they do well in offering generalities, but never get down to the specifics of how Joe Gentile could have managed to pull off such a hoax on the church as a whole. Is there any parallel to this in secular history, where an enormous group at large was bamboozled by (and continued to be bamboozled by) not just one forgery, but four, attributed in a couple of cases to members of an inner circle, in widely separated places and times?

I'll add that under the "Q/Marcan priority" hypothesis, how is it they suppose that "Matthew" and "Luke" would choose to use an anonymous document as a source? Mark could not be recognized as authoritative until it was known what source it came from; yet if the critics are right, "Mark" was considered authoritative enough to use not by just one, but by two others working independently of one another. (One way around this scenario is to hypothesize Christian "prophets" through whom these works might have been received and recognized; for a response to this, see below.)

At the beginning of the second century, there would have been first-generation Christians alive who recalled the apostles and their teaching, and many more second-generation Christians who would have had information passed directly to them.

We have early witnesses to the authorship of some of the Gospels. Papias wrote around 110-130, and he surely did not design the authorship of Matthew and Mark on the spur of the moment. That being so, how could anyone have dared to attribute the Gospels to anyone other than the genuine authors with these first- and second-generation witnesses still alive? Believers in the 70s-90s, when critics suppose that the Gospels were authored anonymously, would have known of no works of Matthew and the others; believers after the 90s who descended from this generation and lived into the lifetime of Papias would have had no tradition of such documents.

883 posted on 01/23/2012 9:17:08 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 779 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson