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To: BlueDragon
What was that Catholic plan of salvation again?

"Unless Qué será, será is a plan of salvation" was a [poor] joke.

On this part that you question: "they sought what was coherent and consistent of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles."

You see the clearest examples of this in the early councils, on who Christ is contra the heresies, quite expressly. This is what kept the Christian religion what it is today. It still does: we are not Calvinists or Oneness Pentecostals or Dispensationists; but, one faith, One Lord, one baptism. Note that the heresies also argued from scripture. It was the apostolic Church that had the authority to affirm apostolic teaching for the Church.

Sola scriptura is an example of what happens without it, fragmentation, division, error, individualism.

One of them, by grace alone

The Church affirmed the doctrine of sola gratia at the Council of Orange, which condemned the Pelagian heresy. However to compare this to the Protestant view of the five solas would off. The five solas emmerged to summarize the Reformers theology in contradistinction to the teaching of the Church. If you look at them, you see this distinction.

We obviously have many similarities but in toto the five solas are intended to go against Church teaching.

Thanks for your courteous reply.

420 posted on 01/20/2012 9:51:50 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

In contradistinction, in distinction of contrast to in other words. That's a good way of putting it.

Which begs the question, what was this "teaching of the church" before during and after the Reformation, which the solas were set in contradistinction with? Please don't try and tell me it was the exact same things universally taught as from the beginning, for we can see there have been changes over time, just as we can see different aspects a faith being stressed or highlighted over other aspects within the near, and most far flung of the Catholic and Orthodox churches today.

Getting back to the discussion of the principle that scripture must be held foremost as a check, or test of practice...
One thing the Reformers were assuredly battling against, was the idea of papal supremacy itself. It didn't fit well from the Word, when taken in context of all else.

Though adherents and promoters of that particular dogma may attempt reliance upon tradition for support, that doesn't quite work when we refer back to the church teachings of that earlier time, current with the early Christological debates, which as you referred to previous, was a time when ""they sought what was coherent and consistent of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles."

Going back even further, it gets even worse for papal supremacy. It was unheard of. Not found in the Word much either, unless one squints hard at certain verses, then ignores the pattern & practice of the foundational Apostolic church.

Since traditional belief and practice falls quite short of the goal of having all other genuine Apostolic churches of the world, whom previously had regarded each other as brethren, and together, with the head being Christ --- accept the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, it is then the church of Rome must rely much upon it's own private interpretation of scripture (with a bit of spin of some carefully selected quotes of early church notables). The idea was first forcefully proposed as being irresistible by their own selves --- not arising from the group of other churches.

So what can be seen to have occurred, but for Rome to leverage the good reputation it had enjoyed times previous, earned in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, to force feed the rest of the universal church to eat that bowl of yopios which they crafted, pushing their own version la` petite of sola scriptura over and above tradition, far from being "coherent and consistent of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles."

was mixed in as result.
Sola scriptura can have it's downsides, that much is true.

When we look to "...one faith, One Lord, one baptism" we can all indeed share much unity (even we separated brethren) when those on either side be focused upon the central figure. I'm glad you put him in the middle, for there is found best hope for us all.

533 posted on 01/20/2012 9:38:11 PM PST by BlueDragon (on'a $10 horse an' a $40 saddle I'm going up the trail with them longhorn cattle c'm uh ty-yi-yipy-)
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