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To: rzman21; D-fendr

I am no real Calvinist, but the 5 solas were intended to stand all together, that much should be clear to any honest man. To refute one of them at a time is to destroy the structure piecemeal, yet not touching the whole thing in the least.

You may destroy as many "tulips" as you wish, peeling back the separate petals one by one in childish glee, without having accomplished the destruction of the thing which vexes you so. For what it is, is a refutation of Rome's claims to Supremacy.

Try looking at them all together, and see how they function as parts of a whole.

The above, taken all together simultaneously, is not "easy believism", though it is easy enough to see why the attacks upon it are of a divide and conquer nature, since the principles were so effective toward diminishing Rome's own powers of influence (having begun to run riot into much ungodliness by that time).

To pretend that they are stand each of them on their own, with no regards to the other, is much more dishonest coming out of mouths of Catholics, than any number of objections to "Mary worship" are, coming out of Post-Reformation Christians.

306 posted on 01/19/2012 2:08:02 PM PST by BlueDragon (on'a $10 horse an' a $40 saddle I'm going up the trail with them longhorn cattle c'm uh ty-yi-yipy-)
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To: BlueDragon; rzman21

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I only have a short time, hope you’ll forgive a quick thought:

I understand your point of the interlocking; however, if the underpinning is false, wouldn’t that cause the rest to collapse as well?

I’m thinking here of sola scriptura. If it is the basis for doctrine, inclusive of the other solas, and it is internally negated, failing its own criteria, wouldn’t that negate its results?

I guess I’m seeing it as the fulcrum for all, or a hierarchy here.

thanks for your courteous reply...


309 posted on 01/19/2012 2:28:50 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: BlueDragon; rzman21; D-fendr

>> “Sola Fide is perhaps the easiest of the Solas to refute.” <<

.
Its never been refuted; its in the scriptures.

Eph 2:8-9

“For by Grace are ye saved through Faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of god, not of works lest any man should boast.”

How do you refute the word of God?


313 posted on 01/19/2012 2:54:29 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: BlueDragon

For what it is, is a refutation of Rome’s claims to Supremacy.
>>The Protestant Revolution accomplished no such thing. The only thing it accomplished was setting the stage for the general apostasy that produced the “Enlightenment.”

Catholics heartily affirm the following Solas.

Sola Deo Gloria, Sola Gratia, and Sola Christus.

Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, however, are unbiblical.

Easy believism, is a Protestant neologism, developed by Baptists who reject once saved, always saved.

The Reformation was not any different than the Russian Revolution or the French Revolution in that it overthrew the existing religious order in Northern Europe and created fertile soil for atheism.


314 posted on 01/19/2012 2:56:40 PM PST by rzman21
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To: BlueDragon; rzman21; D-fendr
"I am no real Calvinist, but the 5 solas were intended to stand all together, that much should be clear to any honest man."
Equally clear to "any honest man" is the fact that the fantasy of "Scripture Alone" destroys all the other "Solas" since everyone from Benny Hinn to David Koresh is properly interpreting Scriptures for themselves and no one has the authority to say which interpretation is correct. Even the crowd who invented "essential and nonessential" doctrine as a smokescreen to try and hide the lack of Holy Spirit driven unity among Protestant and Protestant derived non-Catholic Christians have no authority, just a widely adopted catch phrase.

The fallacy of "Scripture Alone" means that each individual adopts the interpretation whichever of the tens of thousands of different Protestant and Protestant derived groups they prefer says is the proper interpretation or just whips up their own to suit their own aganda.
The fallacy of "Scripture Alone" means that each individual from those who belive ordaining queers is Biblical to the Amish on their farms to the Christian Identity crowd out in Elohim City, Ok. define Christ and 'through Christ' to fit their own preconceptions and agenda.
The fallacy of "Scripture Alone" means that each individual defines Glory to God Alone as anything from not even admitting Christ is the Son of God, God from God, but just a man God filled with the Holy Spirit as needed, to calling taking an oath on the Bible prior to testifying in a Court of Law worshiping something other than God.
The fallacy of "Scripture Alone" was even first procalimed only after throwing out the Christian canon as a way to avoid invonvienent Truths.
And most importantly, the fallacy of "Scripture Alone" means that each individual defines Grace Alone to mean anything from total and absolute predestination with no such thing as free will to the latest incarnation of Universalism that preaches everyone is eventually Saved by Christ and will be in heaven.

Christ did not come as an invisible God in a sparkling cloud or as a warm feeling. Jesus Christ came as God physically incarnate in man, God from God, and He left us in the hands of the equally physical and real Apostles, not in the hands of translators, chemical imbalances that can taint our thoughts, or an invisible herd guided by self-appointed shepherds. His Church, the Church that Christ Himself founded and entrusted to His Apostles, is the The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Even if someone can ingore the tens of thousands of fragments Protestantism has shattered into as proof the Holy Spirit is not the source of the "Scripture Alone" fantasy, the simple fact is that the fantasy of "Scripture Alone" does not exist. Even the most ardent advocates of the fantasy of "Scripture Alone" defend it by saying it is not "Solo" Scriptura to avoid admitting that they are in fact relying on their own preferred traditions in addition to the Scripture. Whether that tradition comes from a horny heretic priest who could not accept Grace and surrender to Christ, an emerging mega church Universalist who cannot accept that those who refuse Christ are damned, or just from the mind of the individual who mixes up their own personal tradition stew of whatever strikes their fancy, it's still tradition in addition to Scripture.

Sorry, but like it or not "Scripture Alone" taints everything about Protestant and Protestant derived doctrine just as sure as putting a rotting corpse in a well taints all of the water. Shoving the mortal corpses of human reason, human frailty, human desires, and fallible human personal interpretation, into the Living Water does the same thing, it taints all of the Truth that flows from Christ through the Holy Spirit to us. That's exactly why Christ left His Apostles in charge of His Church and why we need to have shepherds with a direct link back to the Apostles.

Jesus Christ built His Church on His Apostles who He entrusted to care for His Church until His return. Anyone who believes the fantasy of "Scripture Alone" must first accept that Jesus Christ lied when He said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church, and in accepting that Christ lied, deny the deity of Christ.

382 posted on 01/20/2012 12:33:25 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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