*****Nobody is in favor of what you call a “rogue” leader going out and starting some cult where everyone follows HIM alone and swallow everything and anything he tells them the Bible says. Nowhere in Scripture is anyone ever given license to do that. We are commended to fellowship with those of the faith in Christ just as the early Christians did in local congregations - some even met in homes. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that today and nothing mandates that meetings MUST take place in a formal “church” building. I like the idea of informal gatherings to study Scripture and praise and worship the Lord together. Maybe if going to church hadn’t gotten so stuffy and snooty, more people would still be meeting.****
Those informal gatherings of the NT occurred because of persecution. Once that threat was gone, the Church flourished as it is human nature to want to worship God in beautiful settings and to give the best to Him.
For whom do you think all those artisans created such beauty. The Churches told the story of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit and our relationship to them, in the stained glass and frescoes and murals. The towering spires speak of reaching up to God as He reaches down to us.
What do you think moved them?
****But his ministry was not, contrary to some traditions, as a stay-at-home “bishop” or “pope” of the church which was there in Rome,****
Had Peter died in another city, that city would be the center of the Church.
I find it fascinating how God works.
Jerusalem was under control of the Romans at the time Jesus lived. And it was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. The Jews wanted a king to overthrow the Romans and free them from their oppression. St. Paul was a Roman citizen and then, he and Peter died in Rome and it was from Rome that Christianity gained its freedom.
****This “authority” that you claim is only given to The Church and, by it, the presumed ability to infallibly interpret Holy Scripture, misses out on the facts that this organized body has not always been correct in many areas; they have contradicted each other from Pope to Pope; they have committed atrocities in the name of Christ; they have persecuted genuine Christians; they have destroyed writings that went against them and they have made into dogma doctrines which have no Scriptural support or go against Scripture. Not the kind of behavior Peter spoke about that should be shown in the “household of God”. We are all part of the Spiritual House, living stones, Peter said, and we all have the responsibility to speak the truth and demonstrate holy lives that honor and glorify our Savior.****
Protestants always love to point to sinners in the Church thinking it somehow discounts the Church’s authority. Popes have not contradicted each other on binding doctrine and dogmas. There has been no change in Church doctrine, only a deepened understanding of the truth.
Jesus never promised that those who led the Church would be perfect. Peter was rash and impulsive and not always obedient. When he did not live according to the Council of Jerusalem, Paul had to rebuke him. But, that didn’t mean that Peter could not lead the Church, only that he was not perfect.
I hope I am not being presumptuous to say that you are a sinner. Yet, you believe that in spite of being a sinner, the Holy Spirit can/will guide you to the truth. What would make you different from the Church?
The Church has not changed, just as the truth has not changed. The truth revealed in the NT, was not a different truth than what was revealed in the OT, it was a deeper understanding of that truth, because God had come as Man to deepen our understanding, of God’ love, sacrifice and redemption. And He came to draw all men to Himself, not just those to whom He had already revealed Himself.
The nature of mankind did not change with the coming of Christ, rather the nature of the covenant changed for we now had a perfect sacrifice and a perfect intercessor for our redemption.
You bring up the killing of genuine Christians by Catholics. Do you forget or ignore the killing of Catholic Christians by protestants? Why? Is it because to do so would be to admit that not just Catholics have done such wrong in the name of spreading the gospel?
I think of Peter in the garden when they came to arrest Jesus. What did he do? He grabbed a sword and cut off the ear of one of the centurions. Now, Peter was not a fighting man and probably never dreamed that he would do something like that. But, what did Jesus do? He told Peter to put away his sword and then healed the man.
Christians have put away their swords and Jesus will heal the wound that such violence caused.
In every age, we see the Holy Spirit guiding the Church away from that which is wrong within her and toward what is right.
The problem is that protestants can’t see the forest for the trees.
****So, if you want to relinquish your ability to reason and to investigate Scriptural truths to see if these things be so, then go right ahead. Go ahead and ignore the still small voice of the Holy Spirit that speaks to your heart when you see a Bible passage made to say what you can’t see it saying. Go ahead and trust that others will take full responsibility for your soul and hand its keeping to those who demand fealty to THEIR interpretation under penalty of anathema. But shouldn’t you at least wonder why they NEED to demand such if Scripture really backs them up? No, I choose the Divinely-inspired Holy Scriptures as my infallible authority and I trust the indwelling Holy Spirit to lead me unto all truth - just as Jesus promised. I don’t claim to be infallible, but God’s word is and I can trust it. I sincerely pray you see the truth.****
Why have I relinquished my ability to reason because I accept the Church as Christ’s and trust that the Holy Spirit guides her? If it makes you feel good to think that, go ahead. I know differently. I know that I have searched Scripture, as well as Tradition and history to know that the Church is exactly what she claims.
That still small voice of the Holy Spirit led me back to the Church.
If your prayer is for me to see the truth as you see it, please don’t bother. I have been there, done that and found where God wants me to be.
The *Church* doesn't seem to be listening very well, then, does it.
When the notorious immorality of the Catholic clergy is finally appropriately dealt with, then you can come back to us and tell us that and expect us to believe it. Until then, since it's been an issue for at least the last thousand years, your credibility is taking a pounding.
St. Peter Damian's Book of Gomorrah: Homosexual Situation Graver than Damian's Time
The only reason I stated it is to counter the assertion that only the Roman Catholic Church is the THE true church established by Jesus. I am quite aware of all our sinful natures, but what has occurred within the upper echelons of the Magesterium AND the Papacy while being held as superior to any and all other Christian faith traditions is inexcusable. How, with a straight face, can Catholics pretend that the debauchery and mafia-like criminality that has happened within the hierarchy isn't anything worse than "just our human nature"? Did they completely ignore Paul's commands that such behavior should not be tolerated and the unrepentant guilty parties removed from the fellowship? We aren't talking about minor indiscretions here. It most certainly DOES call into question the authority of this Church. According to the very standards Peter and Paul set out for the church leadership, those who not only committed these grave acts but continued in them would have been tossed out on their ears if they were truly following Scriptural church discipline. This goes for ALL those who would desire to be leaders within a church. Although there is always forgiveness and mercy with God, those who flaunt God's commandments should be sent away from the fellowship until and unless they show repentance. Even then, if they were leaders, giving them back their positions is not a given.
As far as Popes contradicting other Popes' pronouncements or doctrine changing, which is not accountable to "developing" understanding of truth, I can provide you with multiple links that disprove that false impression. Just ask and I'd be happy to direct you to them.
I hope I am not being presumptuous to say that you are a sinner. Yet, you believe that in spite of being a sinner, the Holy Spirit can/will guide you to the truth. What would make you different from the Church?
NO, Jvette, I admit that I am a sinner saved by God's grace and, of course, God deals with each of us in his own way according to our bent. Being guided by the Holy Spirit requires a "broken and contrite heart" first. Only then can he work through faith in our lives. How he guides us into truth is through the Word of God, it is the sword of the Spirit. Anyone who has surrendered their lives to Christ are not only born again but are indwelt with the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth. As long as this really happens, there is no difference.
The Church has not changed, just as the truth has not changed. The truth revealed in the NT, was not a different truth than what was revealed in the OT, it was a deeper understanding of that truth, because God had come as Man to deepen our understanding, of God’ love, sacrifice and redemption. And He came to draw all men to Himself, not just those to whom He had already revealed Himself.
The truth revealed through Christ as recorded in the New Testament is both a fulfillment of the Old and a new covenant. Jesus revealed mysteries to the Apostles and to Paul that heretofore were NOT known previously. For example, in the OT times, the Holy Spirit would come and go with a believer. David prayed that God would not take his Spirit from him. But in the NT, we learn that the Holy Spirit dwells within us and will not leave us - we are sealed until the day of redemption. And there are many other examples of new truths revealed.
The nature of mankind did not change with the coming of Christ, rather the nature of the covenant changed for we now had a perfect sacrifice and a perfect intercessor for our redemption.
I agree and the new covenant God makes with man redeems us from the curse of sin and delivers us to God who saves us by his grace through faith. The old way of sacrifices that only covered sin is ended because the Lamb of God takes away our sin and as far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our sins from us and our sins and iniquities he will remember no more. Praise God!
You bring up the killing of genuine Christians by Catholics. Do you forget or ignore the killing of Catholic Christians by protestants? Why? Is it because to do so would be to admit that not just Catholics have done such wrong in the name of spreading the gospel?
No, I know that many horrible things have been done by those who thought they were doing God a favor by persecuting and killing those who they thought were hurting the cause of Christ. We know, of course, that that is not God's way and that the tares will grow among the wheat and it is HIS job to sort them out. The church is definitely supposed to be the bulwark and support of the truth tenets of the Christian faith as revealed in Scripture but we are commanded to speak the truth in love and be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks us of the hope that is within us, with gentleness and respect. I just don't believe anyone who sincerely loves the Lord and who is serving him with all their heart, mind and soul would ever be guilty of such behavior. Most especially not those who claim they are the One, True and Only Church of Jesus Christ. Such actions would NEVER be sanctioned by the Lord so anyone who claimed such authority and committed such acts would be condemned and shown to be of the devil NOT Christ. I know the history that has happened and many people will have a lot to answer for when they face their judgment.
I just thank God that he knows those that are his. We hear his voice and him only do we follow. And he gives to us eternal life through faith in Christ. I hope you have a blessed Sunday.
It doesn't. We keep trying to tell you that. The Holy Spirit was given to men individually, not an organization to an elite group of men. Eery believer has the Holy Spirit living within him to guide us into truth as Jesus stated.
The nature of mankind did not change with the coming of Christ, rather the nature of the covenant changed for we now had a perfect sacrifice and a perfect intercessor for our redemption.
On the contrary, Scripture does indeed teach us that we have a new nature. We are born again (John 3) and receive that new nature which wars against the old nature (Romans 7&8).
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
If we are born again, born to life spiritually, we'd BETTER exhibit a new nature. It comes with the territory.
If someone can't see a dramatic change in their lives with that commitment, they need to take a really close look at exactly what it is they believe and what it is that they professed to.
1 Corinthians 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.