Posted on 01/18/2012 3:19:15 PM PST by NYer
So is the wafer God? Yes or no?
Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
>> “Try meticulously keeping all 613 laws and see how successful you are.” <<
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Huh ?? This is what catholics do, so why ask us?
Since rzman21 can’t possibly win the debate through knowledge of the scriptures, nor understanding thereof, he tries to use a shell game, bringing up irrelevent, and unrelated chaff, and spam-posting them.
>> “Furthermore, we accept and confirm the councils of the holy fathers, and their traditions and writings...” <<
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There is only one Holy Father, in Heaven, and he keeps no council with catholics. He also rejects ‘traditions’ and calls us to his perfect word.
Romans 12:1-2 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
He can't possibly win any debates until he re-registers under a new screenname.
Did he get to ride the lightning?
Where?
****Catholicism teaches defense of their church and what it’s heiarcky determines because they are taught by it’s leadership to defend them.****
Please show me where this is taught, because I have never learned that nor has anyone spoken of it.
We are taught about Jesus and all that our faith says about Him and about us. We are taught from Scripture and Tradition.
It’s a small percentage of people who take the time to practice apologetics and that practice entails explaining our faith using Scripture, Tradition and the writings of the early fathers.
When I defend the Church it is from scurrilous attacks and vicious untruths told about what the Church believes and teaches.
***Catholicism teaches it’s the source of truth as determined by their leadership and claimed authority.... which it is not....****
Speaking of spurrious claims.....
The Church teaches that the source of truth is God, revealed to us through His word, preserved and proclaimed by His Church. It is the Holy Spirit that guides the Church.
****They forfeited that authority when their leadership brought in all manner of pagan rituals to appease the pagans they invited into the church.****
Another spurrious claim, and one that is laughable considering that the pagan charge is made against all of Christianity and not just the Church.
***leadership desired money and the power it welds***
All of its leadership desires money and power? See, that sweeping brush can be used against others as well. The Church, indeed all of us are human and there are flawed and self centered people in all of it. But, as Jesus promised, the Holy Spirit guides the Church and protects His people.
By saying the Church forfeited their authority, one is admitting they had it at one time. And if that is true, then that is saying that God has given up on His Church, gone back on His word and left His people to perish because some of its leaders are sinful and selfish.
Thankfully, that is not the case, and MOST who serve in the Church are devout believers who are true to Jesus, the Church and their vows.
****Because they see the church as the body of Believers****
As long as those “believers” believe what they believe.
So both of you are arguing that he said it and he didn’t mean it. (For the record, Iscool, yes, the ministry of preaching is entrusted to those who give up all they have to become priests. So, yes, we believe he meant all those passages you claim we don’t think he meant.)
But see, here’s the funny thing. After a lot of Jesus’ figurative languages, when people are puzzled by what he means, he explains, if not to the entire crowd, then at least to his apostles. After every time he spoke of eating his body and drinking his blood, his audience cannot believe he could mean what he says. And he lets those who will not believe in what he says go away from him. And instead of telling people something else that he REALLY meant, he tells them how difficult it is to believe what he is really saying.
So, yes, you’re right: Not everything in the bible is meant completely literally. There are very few sane Christians with gouged eyeballs and severed tongues. But these passages, these he expounds on “Verily, verily I say unto thee...”
Gee, what a surprise.
Anyone else want to join the dogpile?
I pinged you to the thread. Check your ping list.
He and another.
Matthew 23
23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
23:9 And call no [man] your i father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Like THIS one?
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
That's all. Whoever believes....
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life: I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.So in other words, you took the very passage in which Jesus says that you must believe that you must eat his body and drink his blood, and edited it so it sounded like he was simply saying the opposite. Bad mom!The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
****We don’t form our own *church*.****
If you belong to any protestant denomination, you belong to a church started by someone who has a theology which differs from others. This led them to start their own church, which others join because their ears are tickled with the doctrines and teachings that person preaches.
There are too many of them to keep track and news ones forming everyday. It’s like the old joke about the weather, if you don’t like what is preached, wait a few minutes and a new preacher will come along.
***We *ARE* the church, the body of Christ. When we together the church is meeting.****
Gee, exactly what the Church teaches.
***I see that I did say the religious *system* of the day. Poor choice of words on my part. He didn’t buck the religious system in regard to the Law, which he kept perfectly, but rather the religious *traditions* of His day. He bucked the religious tradition of the Pharisees and Sadducees continually and had words with them over it.***
Really? So, the religious “traditions” were not part of Jesus’ religious system? Hmmmmm.....There is only one occasion in which Jesus speaks of tradition. The incidence is related in Mark and Matthews gospels.
When one reads that entire passage, one sees that Jesus does not condemn the tradition itself, but the hearts of the pharisees who question Him because the disciples did not wash their hands before eating.
These men assiduously washed their hands, and performed these rituals in public to be observed by others, but then violated the commandment to honor father and mother, by claiming that they had no money for their care since they had given it to the temple.
Jesus also told His followers to do what the pharisees tell them but no do what they do.
****And his gathering all people together was NOT what the Jews of those days were all about. They didn’t associate with ANYONE who was not full Jew, hence their rejection of the Samaritans.****
He was not a loner then was He?
He also said this.....
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The SPIRIT who gives life. Not a wafer, not eating food. The flesh is NO help at all.
Suddenly context is everything to a Catholic?
Who knew?
There’s a first time for everything, I guess.
Jesus was a man on a mission. He was going to accomplish that whether anyone went along with Him or not.
He invited people to come along and they did, but I also don’t doubt that if they didn’t He’d keep on going, just as happened when his disciples abandoned Him in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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