Posted on 01/15/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
If there is a debate here then it must follow Bible Scriptures to advocate reproofs, corrections, and instructions on how God the Father has ordained and appointed someone other than HIS SON Christ Jesus as that mediator. In light of 1 Timothy 2:5 - there is no debate here since God's Word clearly points out that that mediator is is Christ Jesus, who has been appointed 2,000 years ago between God and men.
My position is that of Christ’s Church: grace is participation in God’s Life. Slightly less abstractly, sanctifying grace is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our souls. Sanctifying grace makes us holy —it is intrinsic— as opposed to actual grace, which is extrinsic.
From the Catholic Encyclopaedia:
Individual salvation
The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Sess. VI, v-vi).
It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner’s heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man’s free will.
Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God’s justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ’s sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God’s grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most HolyPassion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
Against the heretical tenets of various times and sects we must hold
that the initial grace is truly gratuitous and supernatural;
that the human will remains free under the influence of this grace;
that man really cooperates in his personal salvation from sin;
that by justification man is really made just, and not merely declared or reputed so;
that justification and sanctification are only two aspects of the same thing, and not ontologically and chronologically distinct realities;
that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God’s judgment-seat.
Other points involved in the foregoing process of personal salvation from sin are matters of discussion among Catholic theologians; such are, for instance,
the precise nature of initial grace,
the manner in which grace and free will work together,
the precise nature of the fear and the love disposing the sinner for justification,
the manner in which sacraments cause sanctifying grace.
But these questions are treated in other articles dealing ex professo with the respective subjects. The same is true of final perseverance without which personal salvation from sin is not permanently secured.
Not sure what you mean by “basically good.” But the Church, as opposed to many liberal Christians, protestant and Catholic, does not teach that we can save ourselves. Rather we can do nothing except that God intervene. But the Bible tells us that he intervenes in history, using human beings as his instruments, and empowering the Church to act in his name. The role of the Church is, of course, to do his will, not build upon an earthly kingdom, with us as the masters of other men. The emphasis is always on service. We teach right doctrine, we administer his sacraments, read Scripture we give good example, and above all pray without ceasing, seeking to discern the will of good at every moment of our lives. For our body and soul are in imperfect union. And so complicated is life, so little control do we have is that we are never more than a moment removed from personal disaster. Individuals cannot continue to exist apart from others, and in addition to other human being we are always surrounded by an invisible cloud of witnesses who wish only the best for us. Never is it just me and God.
Not sure what you mean by “basically good.” But the Church, as opposed to many liberal Christians, protestant and Catholic, does not teach that we can save ourselves. Rather we can do nothing except that God intervene. But the Bible tells us that he intervenes in history, using human beings as his instruments, and empowering the Church to act in his name. The role of the Church is, of course, to do his will, not build upon an earthly kingdom, with us as the masters of other men. The emphasis is always on service. We teach right doctrine, we administer his sacraments, read Scripture we give good example, and above all pray without ceasing, seeking to discern the will of good at every moment of our lives. For our body and soul are in imperfect union. And so complicated is life, so little control do we have is that we are never more than a moment removed from personal disaster. Individuals cannot continue to exist apart from others, and in addition to other human being we are always surrounded by an invisible cloud of witnesses who wish only the best for us. Never is it just me and God.
Can you define Grace in your own words?
The description of salvation you posted doesn’t define grace but it does imply that in some contexts, it is the Holy Spirit and in others it is an ethereal substance that enters into people. Is this correct?
I referred because this is so often part of the pentacostal approach. Yes, God speaks to us individually. Indeed, one can say that there is no one else who knows us except God, since human speech is so inadequate. But God say loves HIM without reservation neighbor, and us to reach out to our neighbor and try to love him as well as we do ourselves. Which is the reason why the Lord assumed a human face. He gave the leaders of Israel a chance to know him, to love him and serve him. They utterly failed, because they saw in him only just another man, not the god.
Grace is a participation in God’s life, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Grace isn’t any more “ethereal” (in the sense of light and airy) than the Holy Spirit, which is to say, not at all. You can’t get anymore real than God, who is Being or Existence Itself. His Essence is His Act of Existence. He is pure Act. There exists no potential in God.
What is your definition of grace?
Well, that all sounds good, but talking to former Catholics, each and every one of them admits that they thought that they were pretty good.
I can’t tell you the large number of them who admit that when they were Catholics and went to confession that they couldn’t think of anything they thought they’d done wrong that week so they’d make stuff up to tell the priest. Likely, you’d be shocked but once one of us admitts it, EVERYONE in the group who was an ex-Catholics admits to doing the same thing.
If Catholics didn’t think deep down inside that they were basically good, they wouldn’t be depending on their good works to save them. And that goes for any religion, not just Catholicism.
It’s only when we become fully aware of our depravity and the hopelessness of our situation and our inability to do anything to save ourselves, that we come to Christ and throw ourselves on His mercy and ask Him to do for us what we can’t do for ourselves.
Anyone who has done that is saved, no matter what denomination they attend for worship or choose to affiliate with.
Pinging the group because there are several ex-Catholics in it who no doubt could verify what I just related.
Grace is the unearned favor of God that is freely given.
When we say we are saved by grace, we mean that salvation is an unearned gift to believers.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Is this "imputed righteousness" --God overlooking our sins? (I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "favor" here.)
Catholics believe that God makes us truly holy by giving us His own life in our souls. We are made holy by His grace, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
When we say we are saved by grace, we mean that salvation is an unearned gift to believers. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Catholics agree that we are saved by grace. We believe that our salvation is a gift from God. Neither do we believe that we can earn our salvation. But this does not mean that our works are not tied to our salvation. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. "Faith without works is dead." James 2:14-19
Amen!
This is a concept Roman Catholics do not comprehend. Most RCs put the Holy Spirit way behind Mary; I think they're puzzled by the HS and haven't a clue as to His very reason for existing.
That's why they can give the HS's office and responsibilities to Mary so blithely.
I heard about the Holy Spirit when I was a Catholic; he was part of the Trinity, but didn’t have a clue that He actually DID anything.
Certainly no idea that He imparted life to the believer or actually LIVED in us. He was just the kind of tagalong part of God who was more of a force than a person.
That makes sense because the role of the Holy Spirit is to guide our understanding of Scripture. However in the RCC that responsibility is handed over to the fallible men of the magisterium, thus robbing God of His self-proclaimed authority.
I admit it. When you're a little kid and expected to go to confession every Saturday, you have no idea what to say unless you already got in trouble for something. Although, I do remember one time when I was about seven I stole a quarter from my Mom's purse. I almost immediately felt I had done wrong and I even gave it back to her making up a story that I had found it on the playground. I must have confessed the stealing a dozen times but it never occurred to me that telling the story to my Mom was a sin too.
I thank God that he showed me my true nature - one that has no good thing in it - and without his grace I would be rightfully condemned. Because Christ made propitiation for all my sins is the ONLY way I can be saved. God gives to us eternal life and this life is in his Son. By grace are we saved through faith...not of ourselves and not by works. We can never boast.
So, would you say that the grace of God is infused versus imputed?
Your previous post from the Catechism describes the Catholic view that initial grace - the kind that begins the relationship with God - is a gift, but that continuing grace - the kind necessary for ultimate salvation - is infused through works of righteousness and the sacraments. This view also claims that all the grace gifted or infused through a life up to the point of death can be totally lost if there is even one "mortal" sin committed that is unconfessed and unpenanced. Is this also your view?
You’re on fire for the Lord tonight, sister! :o)
You didn’t talk to the right Catholics. Since the Council, liberal Catholics are pretty much into Pelegianism. The big lurch came when so many laymen , priests and bishops rejected Paul VI’ s defense of the traditional teaching on birth control. It was broader than that: a rejection of all the strict teaching on sexual practices. This was, ironically, now rejected as puritanical and a rejection of the goodness of sex. Maybe you are too young to recall the jokes of lapsed Catholic comedians about the teachings of masturbation,and petting. The snide comments about “Catholic Schoolgirls not wearing patent-lether shows because they reflected their underwear. Never mind that as we read Humanae Vitae in the light of what has followed the”Sexual Revolution,” The Pope was a true prophet, ironically because he was also the pope hoped for by the Social justice crowd.
Just seeing this exchange. I would say that, yes, grace IS imputed and means both that God does not count our sins against us when we receive Christ and that he imputes the righteousness of Christ to our account.
Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Romans 4:6,8
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Romans 4:20-25
He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
You forget that a mortal sin is one that kills the soul. It is not just the action, but what the action does to the person who commits it. An unrepented mortal sin blackens the heart.. God is there in every fiber of our being, but we reject him as an adulterous woman rejects her husband.
No, I didn't forget that Catholic teaching. I just don't believe it is Scriptural. God tells us that ALL sin is mortal because if we sin at even one part of the law, we are guilty of the whole law. He also says all have sinned and "fall short of the glory of God" and that "the wages of sin is death". In God's economy sin is sin and "only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sin". In Revelation 21:27, we are told that in Heaven "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." So, even a lie - and who has never told a lie - can be allowed into God's perfect Heaven.
How does someone then get written into that Book of Life? Through faith in Christ, receiving Him, believing in Him, and, only then, are all our sins not imputed to us - he has washed us as white as snow in the precious blood of the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus. The only "unpardonable" sin is rejecting Christ, unbelief - that is sinning against the Holy Spirit who reveals Jesus.
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