Posted on 01/15/2012 10:10:29 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
If there is a debate here then it must follow Bible Scriptures to advocate reproofs, corrections, and instructions on how God the Father has ordained and appointed someone other than HIS SON Christ Jesus as that mediator. In light of 1 Timothy 2:5 - there is no debate here since God's Word clearly points out that that mediator is is Christ Jesus, who has been appointed 2,000 years ago between God and men.
Secondly, why would she tell everyone to pray the rosary everyday? Shouldn't she be leading them to her Son? Shouldn't she be giving them the gospel of the grace of God? We are told, in God's Word, to preach His word. To be ambassadors for Christ, to be reconciled to God by the finished work of Christ, that God made Christ to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. We are not ambassadors for Mary, nor are we given instructions by God to pray a rosary for ANYTHING.
I believe the point Metmom is trying to make - and which I agree with her - is that we are NEVER told to pray to anyone but the Father. We are told to pray for each other, the lost, the body of Christ.
So, we should address the very reason for prayer in the first place. Obviously, it is not to let God know what we need, since he knows our needs before we even speak of them. And it is not so that we can convince him to answer a prayer for us if it is not already his will for us. I think the whole reason for prayer is communication. It IS talking to God, communing with him and is part of our fellowship with him. When we ask others to join us in prayer, we are making them participants with us to this fellowship and the ministry we have towards others. Prayer among us fosters a shared ministry, a shared purpose. That is why, I think, we are encouraged to pray for each other - it gives us a unique share in the lives of other believers as well as a part in the conversion of the unsaved.
When Christians "pray to" those who have died - regardless of what they ask for - it loses the purpose of prayer. Praying to a saint, for example, asking them to pray for you in order to grant a request of God, misses out on God's blessings of prayer - TO him, directly, and more often than not gives the glory to the "saint". Plus, it loses the fellowship of prayer "partners" who have a stake in the blessings prayer provides since there can be no one-on-one feedback. The prayers are sent with no assurance of their destination nor reception. Bypassing God is NOT part of his purpose. And, like the statements from Luther, reflects a distorted perception that "Christ was indifferent to human woes and must be won over through the intercession of his mother, the Virgin". It also "transform(s) Christ the "kindly Mediator" into a "dreaded Judge" who is to be placated by the intercession of the saints and Mary, and by a multitude of other rites".
For these reasons, I do not believe that praying to Mary and the Saints either honors Christ or edifies our faith in the mercy and love of our Heavenly Father.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
For the record, I don't believe all the *healings* that take place in situations like Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland crusades either.
You also stated God didn't give us instructions to pray the Rosary. You couldn't be more wrong. God tells us to pray often. He doesn't tell us not to pray the Rosary. Mary did tell us to pray the Rosary and I don't think God would have allowed her to say that (or even make the visitations) if He did not permit it.
I don't necessarily have a problem with the term but with the inordinate and unscriptural glorification of Mary that resulted.
No mention of Mary, or the Saints in Heaven.
“When you pray, say:
“Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. 3 Give us each day our daily bread, 4 and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”
5 And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; 7 and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs.
9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
We should remember that certain posters have a bad habit of hounding others with loaded questions and, if the questions are not answered precisely, proceeding with the line that if it isn't denied it is affirmed. From that point on, the other is branded with it unless and until a strong denial is posted. Kinda dishonest if ya ask me but dually noted.
And I ask again, how does anyone know what Mary looked like in order to believe they have seen an "apparition" of her?
Yes, God tells us to pray often. He also says not to pray in vain repetition.
Matt. 6:7. "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
But I'm sure you are already familiar with this verse.
Sounds like Satan is missing the boat here. Why doesn't he appear more often to more children with similar messages? In fact, if it's this easy for him, seems to me he would be making these kinds of apparitional appearances (using children) all the time. I think you're selling yourself short to think that all apparitions are the work of Satan.
So your reasoning is: this verse would have to specifically state that Mary or the Saints are in Heaven to make it so. You sound like a gnostic. Some of them claim that it doesn't specifically state in the Bible that Jesus was not married, therefore we can conclude that He was married (or at least had illegitimate children).
Apparitions are of Satan. I don’t care who they pose as.
Fine. Put your faith in apparitions of indeterminate origin.
See where it gets you, but you can’t say you weren’t warned.
Sorta like your previous post that said God didn’t say NOT to pray the Rosary... wouldn’t that be a better description of being a gnostic?
“Apparitions are of Satan.”
Correct. My cousin is a minister in Italy and relates stories of many occurrences, apparitions, etc., that people are sucked in to believing. Clearly demonic. Bottom line, the Bible has revealed everything we need to know. Extra-Biblical “revelations”, mumbo-jumbo, vain repetitions, are of Satan.
Are you unaware that the entire New Testament is the revelation of Jesus Christ? The four gospel accounts are filled with the teachings of Jesus Christ - and the Holy Spirit brought to their remembrance everything Jesus taught them - so that they ARE Jesus' own "writings" in that sense. The epistles of Paul, Peter, Jude and John are the continuing revelation of Jesus Christ that is why they are called Scripture. ALL Scripture is God-breathed. The authority Jesus left us is the Holy Scriptures because only they contain the Divinely inspired, inerrant, revelation from God. No doctrines can be binding upon a Christian if they can not be found in Scripture.
"For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?" - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
"But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)
"For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)
My view on extra-Biblical revelation is that if it doesn't pass the test by conforming to Scripture, its wrong period, no questions asked. It's a given. It should be rejected.
If it passes the test and conforms to Scripture, then it can be found IN Scripture, is redundant and wasn't needed anyway and I would find it suspect and wonder about the motivation of the person giving it.
Scripture contains all we need to be complete, equipped for every good work.
I'm sorry if you see it that way. It is not hate for the Church that is behind our expressions but a love for Christ which constrains us to speak the truth to those who seek to know Him. What I hate is the devil who is a liar and the father of lies, he is a liar who tries to steal the word from the hearts of those who desire it. He sows the "weeds" that spring up among the wheat. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. He is an enemy of everything that is right. Full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Who will never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord.
What we fight is the false and accursed gospel that cannot save but enslaves the lost to a hopeless system of works and rituals that can never make the doer righteous. We fight for the truth of the Gospel that preaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. The Gospel that assures all those who receive Christ HAVE everlasting life and will not come into condemnation but have passed from death unto life. If that is "unhinged", then slap that label on me because I will not stop speaking the truth.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
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