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To: metmom; RnMomof7
I really don't understand the almost hysterical responses every time Mary is discussed in any way OTHER than the way the Catholic Church has deemed truth. Most, when you get past the initial panic, will readily agree that, of course, Mary is not the mother of GOD, God, like she came before Him or is on the same level as Him or part of the "hypostatic" union of the Trinity. They will also accept that the Son of God has existed from eternity, that he always was, that he is the "I am", so that he had no birth in the sense of a beginning. That the Son of God became flesh, made man, God incarnate, is a major tenet of the Christian faith and no one here who is a Christian will deny that truth.

So, we agree that Mary was blessed among women and was chosen by God to bear the Son of God in his human form. I think we can even agree on that. Mary, also, is to be honored and is an example of the kind of trust and faith we should all endeavor to exemplify. She is a model of how Christians should behave - to never doubt God but to move forward in reliance that He keeps His promises. We love her as a sister in Christ, for she will be among us all as part of the Bride of Christ, the Church, His Body.

We can look at the writings of Luther, who recounted his early, Catholic, impressions of Mary as:

St. Bernard, who was a pious man otherwise, also said: ‘Behold how Christ chides, censures, and condemns the Pharisees so harshly throughout the Gospel, whereas the Virgin Mary is always kind and gentle and never utters an unfriendly word.’ From this he inferred: ‘Christ is given to scolding and punishing, but Mary has nothing but sweetness and love.’ Therefore Christ was generally feared; we fled from Him and took refuge with the saints, calling upon Mary and others to deliver us from our distress. We regarded them all as holier than Christ. Christ was only the executioner, while the saints were our mediators. (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 22: 377)

He also recollected, “Christ in His mercy was hidden from my eyes. I wanted to become justified before God through the merits of the saints. This gave rise to the petition for the intercession of the saints. On a portrait St. Bernard, too, is portrayed adoring the Virgin Mary as she directs her Son, Christ, to the breasts that suckled Oh, how many kisses we bestowed on Mary”![14] Luther concluded though, that even in St Bernard’s incessant praise of Mary as she directs the sinner toward Christ, Bernard left out Christ completely: “Bernard filled a whole sermon with praise of the Virgin Mary and in so doing forgot to mention what happened [the incarnation of Christ]; so highly did he… esteem Mary.” [15] Thus, young Luther partook in Mariolatry, but the mature Luther looking back saw only the excesses of medieval devotion and teaching on Mary. He saw that she had been adorned with attributes that only belonged to Christ. http://tquid.sharpens.org/luther_mary1.htm#_edn54

That is the danger I see for some - not all, of course - who stop making Jesus the center of their worship and faith, and they take their eyes off of him, sometimes not ever coming to the knowledge of the truth of the grace of God but fearing Him as a little child fears "Dad" and flees to "Mommy". I see that, in the goal of finessing the explanation of the Deity of Jesus Christ, the "Fathers" went too far and that is why today there is, IMHO, this ever-increasing interest and deference towards Mary that has overshadowed the glory that belongs to Christ, alone.

158 posted on 01/11/2012 9:22:44 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

“who stop making Jesus the center of their worship and faith”

are you referring to those who reject the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist?


163 posted on 01/11/2012 9:27:50 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: boatbums

As we see in this discussion, it is all about Jesus. Debates about Mary are debates about Jesus. That is the point of Theotokos, the point of the council in rejecting Nestorius. It was his belief about Jesus that was revealed in his statments about Mary.

The Incarnation interweaves the two. Get either one wrong and you get them both wrong as well as the Incarnation.


172 posted on 01/11/2012 9:32:21 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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