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To: boatbums
Of course I come from a Catholic perspective. What is obvious is the meaning from only a catholic practices and words you would not see unless you really knew the faith. If he is declaring anything it is in a catholic context.

Ask your self. Did you go to his site then interpret from there. Because it seems if it is this easy why not go to the original text. Why do you need him. Remember he is isolating verses. You have to see the whole text at times to get where Augustine is coming from.

Did you read when I posted that Augustine believed in the literal presence by his writings. Then this Scholar says not clear. Well is this clear.

AUGUSTINE

“Christ was carried in his Own Hands when, referring to His Own Body, he said, ‘This is My Body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that Body in His Hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

To say the least I believe it is out of context. I believe He is addressing the writings among equals Bishops and priests who will then read it to the congregation or it was meant for them alone.. Remember Faith comes from Hearing and Hearing the word. Why is this stated? The authority of the apostolic laying on of hands from the Holy Spirit which has been going on for two thousand years. I witness this on ordination of priests. It is explained at that event for two thousands years it has been done. Every priest of any stature at the time lays hands on other priests.

Faith is never stated by reading and reading the word. It is from authority passed down. Yes, you can get insight and the Holy Spirit wisdom as a lay believer. But do you think you have totally authority to declare what it reads. Remember Christ warned the Pharisees because they declared they knew it well it will go bad for them. If they did not the burden would not be there. You are stating you are in the know to teach when you state it reads this not this. Much responsibility is required for teachers and leaders as the epistles(new testament letters) state. The apostles point this out.

Also notice this word "Canonical." The New testament was decided from many writings that were weeded out by the the authority of the church at a council.Which means by the authority of the church and what it means there from the church. Notice Augustine brings it up with this word Canonical. Which means among equals in authority in the church. Look again here:

"This Mediator, having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority(NOTICE THAT WORD AGAIN CANONICAL SCRIPTURE), and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves."(NPNF1, Vol. 3, Augustin, On Faith and the Creed 2.2).HE IS SHOWING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH AGAIN. It IS DECIDED BY THE CHURCH.

I do not want you to depend on my authority( Meaning Singular), so as to think that you must believe something because it is said by me; you should rest your belief either on the canonical(Group decided) Scriptures, if you do not see how true something is, or on the truth made manifest to you interiorly, so that you may see clearly (FC, Vol. 20, Saint Augustine Letters, Letter 147,Chapter 2, p. 171).

But if it is supported by the evident authority of the divine Scriptures, namely, of those which in the Church are called canonical, it must be believed without any reservation. In regard to other witnesses of evidence which are offered as guarantees of belief, you may believe or not, according as you estimate that they either have or have not the weight necessary to produce belief (FC, Vol. 20, Saint Augustine Letters, Letter 147, Chapter 4,p. 173).

There is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind (NPNF1, Vol. 4, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XI, Section 5). NOTICE HE IS EMPHASISING THE APOSTOLIC SUCCESION OF AUTHORITY FROM CHRIST(Totally Catholic otherwise why bring it up if scripture stands alone by itself.)

This shows that the established authority of Scripture must outweigh every other (Ibid., Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XII-HE STILL MEANS FROM THE CHURCH HE DOES NOT HAVE TO STATE IN EVERY INSTANCE. IT IS LIKE HE IS HOLDING IT IN FRONT OF THEM BY HIS AUTHORITY. IF HE DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY WHY ALL THE COLLECTIVE WHOLE OF WRITINGS POINTING OUT A CHURCH NOT JUST SCRIPTURE.

For, as regards any writing professing to come immediately from Christ Himself, if it were really His, how is it not read and acknowledged and regarded as of supreme authority in the Church, which, beginning with Christ Himself, and continued by His apostles, who were succeeded by the bishops, has been maintained and extended to our own day (Ibid., Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XXVIII, section 4–5).HERE HE IS SHOWING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH. Apostolic SUCCESSION Brought UP AGAIN. HE IS SHOWING JUST NOT ANYBODY CAN READ ONLY ALONE WITHOUT THE CHURCH.

Now, who is it that submits to divine Scripture, save he who reads or hears it piously, deferring to it as of supreme authority (Ibid., Vol6, Our Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, Book I, Chapter XI).YOU READ THIS AS A COLLECTIVE WHOLE WITH THE OTHER WRITINGS OTHERWISE WHY DOES HE BRING THE CHURCH UP WITH SCRIPTURE IN THE OTHER WRITINGS. HE IS NOT GOING AGAINST HIS OTHER WRITINGS. He is showing that the Priest(Authority) reads it and LayBelievers hear it from Authority. It was too expensive to own a scroll at that time for a common believer.

Everything is In My humble opinion as a catholic of course.

150 posted on 01/09/2012 12:58:00 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace
Of course you come from a Catholic perspective, dear Johngrace, I would not expect less. Just a few of my thoughts on Augustine. He was a very complex and spiritual man, a deep thinker combining philosophy with theology, especially gifted in expressing his thoughts and musings but he wasn't divinely inspired as are the Holy Scriptures. We can take what he wrote, consider the times and conditions of when he wrote them, see his progression of thought, but, he was a fallible man. I have no doubt he loved the Lord and the Church. The Church was also quite different in the fourth and fifth centuries than it is today, of that I think we can both agree.

When you quote Augustine and add your own interpretations of his writings, you are engaging in the same kind of exercise as I do and as theologians like William Webster. I, personally, think he does a good job laying out his points and his choice of quotes from men like Augustine are not incorrect - you just don't seem to appreciate how he sees it. I don't believe it would be wrong to assert that Augustine held to the sufficiency and authority of Holy Scripture and, in his time, so did the Church.

173 posted on 01/09/2012 10:21:05 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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