Posted on 12/28/2011 5:47:17 PM PST by rzman21
I disagree with the contention that Protestants do not believe what they are taught: i.e., Protestant “use their brains” while Catholics do not. A lifetime in a variety of Protestant churches has convinced me that many of those in the pews believe what their pastors tell them. Much of the time this is fine, but we also need to exercise our own God-given discernment.
>>I would agree with you regarding the more traditional mainline conservatives in the Protestant ranks, but there is a virulent Evangelical fundamentalism that simply rejects the role of reason in faith. I’ve faced it first-hand on numerous threads since I’ve been on FR.
Discuss the role of reason with these folks, and you have horns and smell of fire and brimstone.
However, there is a Great Mystery here: the Holy Spirit often exercises a restraining effect that prevents - or at least delays - the effects of an experientially-based faith.
>>Agreed. But is experientially based faith simply human feelings or of supernatural origin. I’m a skeptic on this.
As Jesus said:”By their fruits you will know them.”
Thus many churches in the “Protestant” tradition remain faithful to the Gospel when one would expect them to disintegrate. It is their simple faith and trust in their Savior along with a strong devotional life which mitigates whatever theological shortcomings they may have.
>>I can’t argue with genuine faith. Of course only God knows who those individuals are both inside and outside of the visible Church.
God offers all sufficient grace for salvation, but he is the ultimate judge.
This is the Apostate, Pagan and Incorrigible Caucus thread. If you are not a card carrying member then you shouldn’t even be reading this material.
I think too that one must know that they are abandoning the Truth for a heretical sect. I imagine in many cases their ignorance of Catholic teaching keeps them from being fully culpable and therefore they are not apostate by the strictest definition.
Just my opinion which I gladly submit to Mother Church in such matters.
The Lord separates the sheep from the goats. I didn’t see anywhere where there is further separating, like Protestants from Catholics, Baptists from Pentecostals.
Perhaps your concern should be:
“When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8)
Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so
>>Then I stand corrected. I’ve always been led to believe that the Mormon Church is pro-family at least in the secular sense.
Protestantism=Liberalism.
>>That’s because you went on an individualist attack on the Catholic Church, so I merely pointed out the connection between Protestant individualism and relativism — the essence of French Revolution-style liberalism.
Protestantism=Liberalism.
>>That’s because you went on an individualist attack on the Catholic Church, so I merely pointed out the connection between Protestant individualism and relativism — the essence of French Revolution-style liberalism.
As a Protestant I have to agree with rzman21 here. In a church that has proper, biblical-based authority (deacons, elders, etc.) in place, the pastor is held accountable. This was the situation in the Baptist church I was raised in. As I have pointed out elsewhere, this may well have been due to the piety and moderation of the church as a whole.
However, most of us know of huge churches run by some big-name preacher who "runs the show" and answers to no one. The rejoinder: "I'm accountable only to the Lord" is but an excuse to do whatever one wants. I know of one recent case where a church hired a would-be big name pastor who promptly got rid of the deacons and elders. The same pastor has recently been accused of sexual misconduct by several young men. This pastor settled out of court for a huge sum of money while refusing to admit any wrongdoing.
This is not an isolated case: I could name numerous similar cases where pastors of proudly "independant" churches misused their authority in various ways.
Thankfully most churches avoid such pitfals because, again, of the piety of the faithful, but I do not see the label "independant" as something to brag about.
***
Yes, I agree. But if you believe in something you should be able to defend it in an intelligent way and not resort to name calling or twisting words around. It must be reasonable and worthy. We’re not trying to convert each other (or at least I’m not) but hopefully understand WHY you believe something. Catholics believe something because the Church tells them what to believe. Protestants find that unacceptable.
***
So the Truth changes? The Church tells us what has always been not what today’s culture has decided is the new truth.
Just look around at all the denominations who have bought into the culture. What is happening in those churches?
So what do we have now? New churches springing up daily saying: We teach the Bible. Yeah well maybe today but what happens tomorrow?
Like you said.
In the Catholic Church, at least theoretically, the priest plays second fiddle the Christ. In some charismatically led Evangelical churches, Sunday becomes an ego trip for the preacher who usurps the role of Christ and becomes the master rather than the servant.
A Catholic priest, by contrast, however, is supposed to be a faceless servant of Christ.
I just look at people like Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Joel Osteen, TD Jakes, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, etc., it was all about them. Jesus was a prop in their Churches.
Like you said.
In the Catholic Church, at least theoretically, the priest plays second fiddle the Christ. In some charismatically led Evangelical churches, Sunday becomes an ego trip for the preacher who usurps the role of Christ and becomes the master rather than the servant.
A Catholic priest, by contrast, however, is supposed to be a faceless servant of Christ.
I just look at people like Benny Hinn, Jimmy Swaggart, Joel Osteen, TD Jakes, Pat Robertson, Jim Bakker, etc., it was all about them. Jesus was a prop in their Churches.
We don’t need a Protestant Church or a Catholic Church.
We need people to read their bibles and take salvation seriously.
“The Church” is not a worldly church run by men, it’s God’s people, in all continents, in all walks of life, yes even in Catholic OR Protestant churches. And even those who have never attended a physical Church. Read Romans 1, about how God will give those who receive the light he gives them more light, so that none have an excuse.
The problem is not that men don’t know the truth, but that men love the darkness. Similarly the problem is not the church, it’s with the believers.
“the one Church Christ died to establish”???? I don't think so.
“They believed that all they needed was scripture alone.”
Ugh, YES! It's the only book He wrote.
“the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.” Religious mumbo jumbo.
The real presence of Christ is in “ME”, not some cracker or Welch’s Grape Juice.
Yeah and the Catholic Church has never changed any, is that correct? The Mass has never been changed? Any theology ever change? No? None? Are you really really sure?
To: shanover
I don’t think Christian management is all that concerned about whether we’re Catholic or Protestant as long as we’re working toward the same goal.
>>Here’s your attack on the Catholic Church, considering the topic of this thread is about Catholics who are seduced into leaving the Catholic Church.
I interpret this as a relativist attack on the Catholic Church.
I would consider such behaviour completely unacceptable. However, I would disagree with your contention that my experience of not experiencing active anti-Catholicism is "unique" (as in "an exception to th rule"). Rather, I would hope that the unfortunate experience of your friend is the exception rather than the rule.
But I’m the one who goes to bed with a clear conscience.
And yes I’ll pray that you see the error of your ways.
Agreed. bears repeating. Too much emphasis on the Church and its busy activities and no knee work or communing with God leads one astray. Better to spend one hour reading and understanding the Bible than two hours in Church listening to stuff that doesn't square with the Bible or the life of Jesus.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.