Pope highlights Mary's role as 'woman of the apocalypse'

Catholic News Agency ^ | 12/28/11 | Benjamin Mann

[metmom]

If Revelation 12 is speaking of Mary, then how do you get around the part that speaks of her in verse 2 "She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth."? Remember in Genesis 3:16 when God told Eve because of sin, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children."?

So, if this Revelation verse is speaking of Mary, then she cried out in pain while giving birth and it meant she had the sin nature passed on from Eve. Yet, Roman Catholic teaching says Mary did not have a sin nature nor any pain birthing Jesus and she remarkably even remained a virgin. So which is it? Revelation 12 CANNOT be speaking about Mary. It can ONLY be Israel, who is persecuted during the last half of the Tribulation. No other way fits.

Oooops......

[johngrace]

"If you picked up the bible alone and read it alone for sure most of the stereo types would never have come up. It is taught outside. So it is a merry go -round. It never stops."

"That shows an incredible lack of faith in God. You think He doesn’t find a way to draw those He chooses to Himself through His word?"

I am talking about your conclusions from scripture stop twisting My statements. The Holy Spirit can guide anyone. It's your conclusions and where you get them.

[marbren]

Hi Quix, for the benefit of lurkers I wanted to post this:

The pretrib rapture truth of scripture passes the grace/works, pride/brokenness, God control/man control tests.

Also, it is the only interpretation that does.

[marbren]

There is some speculation, I do not know if it is true or not, that after the rapture many catholics will not take the mark of the beast and become tribulation saints and have their heads cut off? They will get their wish to suffer? I do not know but, Thank God, God knows.

The problem for USA catholics is that the destruction and death in the USA probably right after the rapture may not allow time for this. The USA will be put aside dramatically so the NWO can rise.

[CynicalBear]

>>I am talking about your conclusions from scripture<<

Conclusions? Believing what God says in scripture is “conclusions”. I suppose it is. I do conclude that what God says is fact.

[johngrace]

[marbren]

You are correct the only approval we need is God’s

[johngrace]

con·clu·sion   [kuhn-kloo-zhuhn] Show IPA

noun

1. the end or close; final part.

2. the last main division of a discourse, usually containing a summing up of the points and a statement of opinion or decisions reached.

3. a result, issue, or outcome; settlement or arrangement: The restitution payment was one of the conclusions of the negotiations.

4. final decision: The judge has reached his conclusion.

5. a reasoned deduction or inference.

EXPAND

**"I am talking about your conclusions from scripture

Conclusions? Believing what God says in scripture is “conclusions”. I suppose it is. I do conclude that what God says is fact."****

What! You exactly know what the word means in every verse!! Think now!! Hello!! What is a conclusion?

So in other words everything you say scripture means is correct because you declared it.

What does your Church say?

[johngrace]

Yes! All in All. It always comes to His wonderful Merciful Divine Mercy and Forgiveness.

Praise Jesus!!

[marbren]

Agreed, All that matters is the grace of God and faith IN Christ Jesus Our Lord.

[marbren]

What does your Church say?

I sense you and Mad Dawg are already in my church?

[johngrace]

"The problem for USA catholics is that the destruction and death in the USA probably right after the rapture may not allow time for this. The USA will be put aside dramatically so the NWO can rise. "

I believe we will not exist for the Rapture. It will happen after America is bombed into a Third world country.

I have seen in dream visions(rare but amazing never the less) the future happen. Most were personal friends and family deaths for salvation. One was accurate right up to the exact broadcasters on Channel 12 news in NY. I saw it before it happen. exactly seven months before. My friend's daughters drive by shooting death. Just Horrible. But I know she is with the Lord. I prayed my Heart out for the Family.

But one(only one about the nation) about USA not good. It will happen under Obama's watch. I have a feeling He might just win for another four years. If not what I saw will happen within a year. Terrible.

[RegulatorCountry]

While I’m certainly not infallible and never would I have the hubris to claim otherwise, it appears that certain passages of scripture have meaning in a variety of ways, with one not contradicting another. This passage from Revelation 12 is a prime example.

A virgin with child clearly references the birth of Jesus Christ and his mother, Mary. Regardless of the peculiar beliefs that have been spun off of this by the Catholic Church, it is undeniable in my opinion. However, it is also Israel. That is easily deduced and fairly straightforward, unless of course one presumes one’s own church to have supplanted Israel, which has led to all sorts of ugliness, and will again.

But, it is also a sign, a literal sign. Old Testament and Jewish prophecy is replete with such things. It’s what had the Magi trekking a very long distance to find the king of the Jews. This sign heralds His return in the same way. Note, however, that this is the earthly king ruling with a rod of iron, the expectation of the Jews, borne of prophecy, that led to their rejection of Him in the first instance.

Second occurences that address the first are not foreign to the Bible. The first Adam who sinned, the second Adam, Jesus Christ, who was victorious over death and sin.

So, it’s Mary with child. It’s Israel. It’s a sign that heralds His return. It fulfills Jewish prophecy completely. There is no reason it cannot be all these things, and I believe that it is all these things.

You do point out an obvious and interesting difficulty for those who have intellectualized the virgin birth and the sinlessness of Jesus Christ into believing that this necessitates a sinless Mary. She cried out in pain, a consequence of sin.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"After asking for the need to have a Savior when we are broken in spirit, should not prayer be praise and thanks and waiting and resting in and listening? Our other needs and wants seem not worth praying for."

I think I understand what you're saying here, and the quote from St. Paul is excellent.

On the other hand, Jesus Himself taught us to pray for our daily bread as well as all of our other needs, to pray as children do their Father (and anything children can innocently want, they can innocently ask their Father for).

I know I, myself, wuld do well to learn to serenely ask for God's will to be done, and leave it at that without further perturbation. But is it our nature, even at our best, to be so unperturbed? Jesus Himself wept when He heard of Lazarus' death; He suffered anxiety and anguish in the Garden, and not without struggle did He finally pray "Not my will, but Thine be done."

If I may ask, please pray for me and I will for you.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for praying for Judith Anne.

[Uri’el-2012]

Still unable to speak the name of the cult you follow? How very odd, and sad.

cult |kəlt|
noun
a system of religious veneration
and devotion directed toward a
particular figure or object:
e.g. the cult of Mary

The entire Roman "church" is built upon the Cult of Mary.

This thread outlines how the leader of the RCC cult
speaks in devotion and veneration of the dead Mary.
Mary a created being , a sinner needing salvation.

I on the other hand worship the creator
of the universe as outlined in His WORD.

Have a wonderful journey.

But be prepared for some difficult questions at Judgement.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[marbren]

If I may ask, please pray for me and I will for you.

How about this?

I Thank and Praise you Heavenly Father for the work you are doing in Mrs. Don-o's life In Jesus Name I pray Amen. :)

[Mrs. Don-o]

I think I see the source of this misunderstanding: in every example you are taking as primary and absolute what we all know to be secondary and contingent.

The Lord Jesus, who is God and Man,accomplishes all by His divine power. As for all the rest of us, including Mary and all the angels and saints (all of whom are alive in Christ, for as He said, "the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob is not the God of the dead, but of the living"), we "do" or "act" or "accomplish" only in a completely dependent and derivative form. The prayer of Jesus makes Christian prayer an efficacious petition. He is its model, he prays in us and with us.

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." — James 5:16

In other words: we intercede. Angels intercede. Mary intercedes. Members of the Church intercede. Fellow FReepers intercede. That is all.

If one were to ignore this truth, then all praise of a creature would be idolatrous (even calling anyone "just" --- Noah, Joseph, John the Baptist, Stephen and others care called "just" --- would be idolatrous) and intercessory prayer would be idolatrous.

But in the light of this truth-- the absolute excellence of God and the secondary, contingent nature of everything that is not-God---- all levels of the excellence of "just men" and "blessed women," are seen int he light of their dependence on God. All levels of purity or holiness or beauty or power or excellence, and all sorts of intercession are willed by Him, find their source in Him, find their fulfillment in Him, and glorify Him.

That's the key, and I think that's what's not understood.

Any praises of Mary are meant in the same sense that the Archangel Gabriel said, "you are full of grace, the Lord is with you" and Mary said "all generations will call me blessed" Why? Only because "He who has mighty has done great things" for His lowly handmaid.

[Cronos]

welcome Zulu, we’ve been saying that about our antagonistic friends for some time - and for the record most of the non-Catholics are not like that.

[marbren]

My prayer focus message on this thread is to try to focus more on Thanks and Praise and less on God is Santa. Also, intercessory prayer is scriptural, but the numbers game of how may people can I get to pray so God can hear better can become a problem IMHO.