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To: Cvengr

read the NT and give me one example of when the Holy Spirit saved anyone without using the Church.

did this happen in Acts 2?
Acts 8?
Acts 10?
Acts 22?

The Church is the Body of Christ and the instrument of the Holy Spirit.


378 posted on 12/27/2011 4:36:03 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; Cvengr

one Lord one faith one baptism wrote:
“read the NT and give me one example of when the Holy Spirit saved anyone without using the Church.”

Well, Acts 9:3ff comes to mind. However, that is hardly the point. Since Christ commanded that the Church “make disciples” of all nations, it is very plain (yes, there’s that word again) that ordinarily (a very important point) it is His will to make disciples by person to person contact, that is, by a believer or some group of believers bringing God’s saving truth (the Gospel) to an unbeliever who then believes.

However, what you want to do - apparently - is alter the “means of grace” from God’s word and sacraments to the church. That is not acceptable, for the reason that it is not in agreement with the Scriptures themselves. Yes, indeed, faith comes by hearing, which of necessity means human voices, but that which is spoken is the key. God’s word and His sacraments are just that, His. They accomplish His will. They do what they say. Man is the conveyor of God’s word and sacrament, that is true. But the key is word and sacrament, which must and do conform to the plain meaning of the Scriptures. In other words, for example - and this will upset many Protestants - baptism is not a mere symbol of something, no, baptism is God’s working in water and the word applied through sinful humans to adopt as His child the one who is baptized. What is to follow is instruction in God’s word that the baptized continue in the things which Christ commanded, per Matthew 28:18ff. ... one of which is: The Lord’s Supper, which is not a mere symbol of Christ’s body; but it is what His word plainly (there is that word again) says, “This is My body, given for the forgiveness of your sins.” Etc.

one Lord one faith one baptism, don’t confuse the means with the subjects.


386 posted on 12/27/2011 5:19:20 PM PST by Belteshazzar (We are not justified by our works but by faith - De Jacob et vita beata 2 +Ambrose of Milan)
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