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To: daisy mae for the usa

oh, you will get no arguement from me on this.

it’s a scandal that the Church hasn’t excommunicated those that claim the name of Christ, but by their actions ( denying Christ as the only way to heaven, adultrey, abortion, child molesting, etc ) show they are not Christian.

the Catholic Church is experiencing the falling away 2 Thessalonians says will come before the end.


376 posted on 12/27/2011 4:23:45 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

We see from the Corinthian letters and the individual addresses to the churches in Asia that very soon after the establishment of the Church along with various other passages, false doctrines and false teachers sought to pull people away. That is the nature of free will. In the beginning God gave man free will and it has not been removed. Therefore, Satan will always have a measure of success until Christ returns.

In returning to the idea of sola scriptura, our discussion encouraged me to re-read the temptation of Jesus. Particularly, these verses were very interesting, in light of this discussion.

Matthew 4:3,4
3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Obviously, Satan is concerned with tempting Jesus with physical satisfaction, considering He had been fasting. Jesus answers this temptation with scripture—with no reference to tradition (and certainly the Jewish faith is rich with tradition). Further, He ignores physical sustenance and instead addresses spiritual sustenance. And how does one experience spiritual completion? “by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Jesus, God in the flesh, has said God’s Words are all sufficient for spiritual satisfaction. Who would dare say to Jesus, God in the flesh, “but I think You could be mistaken about that. I think we need some bearing in tradition to go with God’s Words. In fact, I think we need a man to clarify God’s Words to us, through this man’s understanding of tradition.”

Another interesting passage of similar thought is Luke 11:27-29.

27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”

28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.

Where, in verse 28 is Jesus, God in the flesh, referring to a need for tradition to supplement God’s Word? Further, it is made clear in vs. 29 that the pursuit of signs other than those —already— given by God is an evil pursuit.

Again, in Luke 21:32,33, referring to the end time and beyond to forever, Jesus says of His own Words that they will endure forever. Surely Holy Words with this type of *staying power* can be sufficiently understood by any person seeking salvation through them without benefit of tradition? Who would have the courage to say otherwise?

32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Can there be any more lovely truth than what is read in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

How can one ever question the sufficiency of scripture alone, as it is the very Word of God, as all that is needed to guide a man to salvation and instruct him in how to stay in that state? Often the scripture is described as “living”. Just because it came to us 2000 years ago, does not make it lacking in relevance and in need of assistance from a boost of tradition. Scripture LIVES because it is God’s expression, and He LIVES, too, forever.

Yes, I do realize that Paul said, “15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” This would at first glance seem to verify a need for tradition. But, in looking at this verse in context, Paul is speaking to the Thessaloniacans about information already in their possession, and rejoicing with them that if they hold steadfast, they will endure through the period of time in the end, referred to in the previous verses. The apostles were inspired directly by the Holy Spirit. Once they finished their ministry, there was nothing new needed for man to be reunited in fellowship with God.

Sadly, God’s chosen ones have in many times past chosen the importance of tradition over His Word solely. “making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.” (Mark 7:13) The Pharisees were warned about this very thing. Whoa to the man who learns not from those who have gone before.

Clearly, if God’s Word has been distorted to suit a man’s purpose as you have described in your concerns related to sola scriptura, the fault lies at only one place, and that is the man who distorted, not God who spoke it. Further, the only man who is qualified to *supplement* God’s Word is the man who can answer these questions:

4 “ Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.

5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?

6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,

7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;

9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;

10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;

11 When I said,

‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’

12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?

14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.

15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19 “ Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,

20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?

21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?

22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,

23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?

25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,

26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;

27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?

28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?

30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen.

31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?

32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth[a] in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?

33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?


I know of no such man. Neither did Job. (ch. 38ff)


409 posted on 12/27/2011 7:44:06 PM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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