Posted on 12/15/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by Cronos
You have steadfastly refused to answer any of my simple questions.
Stop trying to evade.
WHY did Paul REQUIRE the 12 BELIEVERS to be re-baptized in Acts 19?
***WHY did Paul REQUIRE the 12 BELIEVERS to be re-baptized in Acts 19? ***
It was NOT for remission of sin as that is what John preached, and these were people who had been baptized by John, FOR THE REMISSION OF SIN.
Mark 1: 4. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.
Now, did these men gain new sins that required baptism again AFTER THE CRUCIFICTION? If baptism for remission was again later required should all Christians be rebaptized every few weeks to remove old sins?
NO! They were baptized with ritual baptism to be identified as followers of JESUS. They were already believers.
Acts 19:2. He said unto them, have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED?
No different than a standard Baptist church baptism.
Just curious. Does the CoC dismiss the Old Testament? Thanks.
Absolutely not. The whole Bible is necessary to fully understand God's will.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Now does the Old Covenant still bind us? No. Hebrews 8 explains this:
6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Acts 19 is an enormously important bit of scripture because it unlocks WHY baptism is a commandment.
This part of God's Word makes it clear that 'immersion' is much more than getting wet.
There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
Getting dunked by John was not enough to receive the indwelling presence of God's Holy Spirit. Prior to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Holy Spirit did not dwell within men. We see plenty of examples of the Holy Spirit being given to people, mostly prophets, in the Old Testament but it was not a regular occurrence.
Hebrews 11, the great chapter listing the heroes of faith under the Old Covenant ends this way:
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
None of these heroes of faith had received what had been promised. What was promised? God living right inside us. That's what differentiates the Christian age from the time before. Because God sacrificed part of Himself for our sins, He puts a part of Himself into us to 'seal' us for resurrection. Submitting to baptism (which a shocking number of believers will not do) is declaring our desire to be joined to Him symbolically in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
Acts 19 makes it clear, if you are willing to see, that by doing so God then seals us with His Holy Spirit.
Ruy, I do understand that the getting wet part is not the deeper meaning.
These 12 men were re-baptized because they had no understanding of, or contact with, the Holy Spirit. That is the power here, not getting wet.
Luke 3:
15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Christ. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
This re-baptism in the name of the LORD Jesus was to receive the Holy Spirit. We can see that in the post crucifixion era, baptism was still done with water (Acts 8, Ethiopian official) and here in Acts 19, the implication is that the ordinary use of 'baptism' meant they were dunked in water as well. The difference between John's baptism and the post-crucifixion baptism was that God seals us with the Holy Spirit!
I must ask you, brother Ruy, has God sealed you for resurrection? I hope you have His Spirit indwelling you.
***“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” ****
Well, St Paul must have recognized them as believers. the question of salvation never entered into the question, only the question of the Holy Spirit.
By re-identifying them with Jesus by baptism he then confired the Holy Spirit on them.
Baptism did not remit their sin as sin had already been remitted by JOHN. And JOHN required proof of a change in their life before he would baptize. This is why the Pharisees and Sadducees refused to be baptized by him.
But then we have a problem.
When Cornelius was converted by Peter, the Holy Spirit fell on them before they were baptized.
Look at the exact point when the Spirit filled them.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Then Peter asks if anyone could forbid baptism for these people who already showed the signs of salvation and the filling of the Holy Spirit.
So, was Cornelius saved when he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit, or later when he got wet?
Yes, He did come upon them before baptism.
This is also true on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 when He filled the apostles and appeared as 'tongues of fire' resting on each of them.
Why do you suppose only on 2 recorded occasions did the Spirit fill men prior to baptism?
It is important to note that these 2 occasions were major departures from prior theology. The day of Pentecost was the establishment of the Lord's church, closing and fulfilling the covenant age of Moses.
Cornelius represented salvation coming to the Gentiles and revealing the hidden mystery God had intended from the beginning.
I think it is instructive that in Acts 10 Peter and the other Jewish believers remark: received the Holy Spirit just as we did
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
God moved in such a compelling way that Peter realized that his vision of the sheet being lowered with unclean animals coupled with seeing these Gentiles be immersed in the Holy Spirit in a clearly unique way Just as they had was God's clear stamp of approval for the Gentiles to be part of the kingdom.
So, was Cornelius saved when he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit, or later when he got wet?
Yes.
These things are so tightly tied together they are inseparable. 'Later' was clearly the same hour. As I have repeatedly stated, the getting wet part is not the focus. Baptism is part of the same submission process that believing is, and baptism takes less 'effort' on your part than believing does, yet no one balks at the notion one must believe.
Peter and Paul both commanded that baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus was a requirement. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that to enter the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit, harmonizing the two elements of baptism.
In the case of Acts 19, it was for receiving the Holy Spirit, as is normal for most believers. In the case of Cornelius, it was because they had received the Spirit in a remarkable way.
This also shows that we can not put God in a box. He is Sovereign and He will save who He wants, how and when He wants.
The real question boils down to: will we submit to God's clear instruction?
So, was Cornelius saved when he believed and was filled with the Holy Spirit, or later when he got wet?
“Yes.”
Your answer is ambiguous. So, which was it.
When he was filled with the Holy Spirit?
OR
when he got wet.
The bible says we are 'saved' by many elements that are all tied together and can't be isolated.
1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now saves you
Romans 10:10 Confession saves you
Ephesians 2:8 Grace saves you
and so on.
Each of these elements are part of the package deal.
If a man and a woman said to each other the before God they were married, the state my not agree but I (and is my opinion) they would be as married as they could be.
Colossians 2:14 and following (among others) shows that the Old Testament was no longer in force but that the New Covenant is.
If possible please cite where we are told in the New Testament to do the same as the men spoken of in Acts 21:17.
It seems to be quite specific as to the event and the time.
Ambiguous as this...
Do you or or do you not beat your wife?
“Yes”.
See how silly your answer is?
***The bible says we are ‘saved’ by many elements that are all tied together and can't be isolated.****
I am very much aware of the CoC trying to find all the verses and have put them in a step format.
What must I do to be saved?
1. Do this..
2. Do that.
3. Do this over here.
4.Do that over there
It is not enough for you to do what Paul (who was NOT sent to baptize) and Silas said to the jailer..
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
No step 1, step 2, and so on for Paul.
And Peter, who said...
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Again no Step 1, step 2.
And Peter's defense...
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
And John..
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
And Paul again..
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Now if baptism in water was that important the Apostles would have reinterated it at every opportunity.
When Paul speaks of being “baptized into Christ” he is not speaking of water but our identification with Christ when our sins were hanged on the Cross with Christ. It is as if we were the ones crucified.
When Peter speaks of baptism in Peter 3:21, he is referring to the ARK as a type or figure of Christ (the like figure) when Noah entered into it. The same as we have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
The evil generations were the ones who got baptized by immersion with water washing them away. Water baptism merely identifes the person being baptzed as a follower of Christ, as the 12 from Alexandria.
***If possible please cite where we are told in the New Testament to do the same as the men spoken of in Acts 21:17.***
If the Christian teachings of the early church, Jewish and Gentile, were the same, why did the CHRISTIAN Ruler of JERUSLALEM (James) require Paul to take men with vows, offer animal sacrifices if those things were done away?
Sacrifices became useless when Christ became the ONE sacrifice for all and Temple worship stopped when the Romans destroyed it.
There are several things the early church did that were no longer done just a few years later, such as communal living and having all things equal.
Thankfully God stepped in and stopped this before Paul could complete his orders from James. Paul eventually won a free trip to Rome as a consolation prize. ;-)
Pointing out that belief, repentance, confession, faith, baptism are ALL elements of the salvation event is clearly NOT formulating a 'step format.'
You reference Acts 10 but stop there because it fits your notion. I agree with Acts 10. I also agree with Acts 2, Acts 19, Acts 22 and many others I have posted. I have pointed out how many other passages include supplemental information to the question of: 'What must I do to be saved.'
That isn't popular and it doesn't agree with what the mainstream is teaching, but I'd rather listen to God's word than what some megachurch pastor is peddling.
I will stand on the totality of commandments, not on the one or two that best fit my preconceived notion.
Must I believe? Of course.
Must I confess Jesus with my mouth? Of course.
Must I repent of the garbage and filth in my life? Of course.
Must I submit to baptism? Of course.
Oh. Wait. That one is apparently optional if I don't like it.
The attitude is what is important.
I must be willing to obey the commands of God whether I think they make sense or not.
Unequivocally, baptism is a COMMAND. Many people seem to balk at this command, much like Naaman did in 2 Kings 5. Dipping in the Jordan 7 times OFFENDED him, and he refused. When he finally complied with this 'silly' command God healed him.
Baptism is PART of what one must do to obey God. Just like believing, confessing and living a life that conforms to scripture.
If God commands it, am I willing to obey?
***I will stand on the totality of commandments, not on the one or two that best fit my preconceived notion.***
***If God commands it, am I willing to obey? ****
Really? Then OBEY THE COMMAND OF THE LORD!
“Ye lack ONE THING.
Sell all you have and follow me.”
The story of the rich young ruler is a great teaching.
Christ looked into the heart of the young man and realized this was the one thing he lacked, namely he was putting his trust in material things instead of spiritual.
I give away my belongings easily, too easily according to my family. You picked the wrong guy to try to shame with that one!
Anyway, this teaching is aimed at all of us, not to become blinded by the mortal realm. Try again.
***I give away my belongings easily, too easily according to my family. You picked the wrong guy to try to shame with that one!***
Well I can give you a couple of more commandments of Jesus written in red letters in this bible.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
And as for the rich young ruler, he asked..(short verison)
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing SHALL I DO, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 ....... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
I don’t see anything about the steps the CoC requires. No baptism mentioned at all!
The rich ruler wanted to EARN his salvation so Jesus gave him impossible things to do.
As you know it is impossible to keep the law even if you tried, so Jesus just made his request harder. “Sell all that you have...”
Do you know that the Northern Irish Restorationist movement preached exactly that and their preachers do exactly that because it is scriptural, and in their eye, any group that does not do that is unsaved.
What the young ruler failed to see in Jesus’ teaching was that ETERNAL LIFE CAN NOT BE EARNED! it is the free gift of God, and Jesus was trying to teach this.
Even St Paul said that salvation could not be earned.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The CoCs remind me of another group here on Fr (we just had a 300 post thread a few weeks ago) that try to keep the commandments and the words of Christ. It appears they are not sure what all needs to be done so they try to cover all bases by doing it all.
Even Martin Luther wrote of the fear of failing to come up to God’s standards by your own effort in THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL.
“If I lived and worked for all eternity, my conscience would never reach comfortable certainty as to how much I must do to satisfy God. Whatever work I had done, there would still be a nagging doubt as to whether it pleased God, or whether He required something more.”
I have that certainty. I have never seen a CoC or an Irish Restorationist who did.
By the way, those Irish reatorationists are also called COONEYITES, from a preacher William Cooney.
I don't know any congregation in my area that thinks we 'earn' anything by being obedient, even the wacky extreme groups don't believe that.
***I have that certainty. I have never seen a CoC or an Irish Restorationist who did.***
Huh.
Can't speak to the Cooneyite thing, but my little congregation of 350 people are certain of being washed in the blood and saved by grace. Oh yeah, we believe in trying to be obedient too. Is that earning anything? Ha. Nope. It is the response to already being saved.
Like most baptism rejecters, you keep trying to hang a works-based salvation on me Ruy. Nope. Obedience is simply that, obeying a command. I have never thought, nor has it ever been taught from any pulpit I know of that God owes me salvation for being obedient.
Oh, and here's a clue; Baptism is NOT a work. I don't do it. Somebody does it to me. I put more effort into believing. I actually have to DO that. But nobody pretends believing is a work.
You throw these volumes of words out to convince yourself that baptism is optional. It ain't. It is part of the response to God's grace.
Oh yeah, almost forgot to address this little gem.
When did our Lord speak this?
Right. BEFORE he was crucified. Guess what? The church and the new covenant hadn't been started yet.
So they were still under Mosaic Law.
K?
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