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To: boatbums

By what right do you assume that Mary was a fallen creature when God himself had chosen her as his own? The Bible Tells us that it was because of her disobedience that Eve was to suffer in childbirth. You say you believe in the Virgin Birth. Why then deny a miracle of much less consequence.? Mary was no spirit, but the second Eve, and unlike the first God’s obedient servant. The same Christ who passed through closed doors, who could command the spirits of Elijah and Moses to the top of the mountain, could not come into the world as he pleased and without harm to his mother?


117 posted on 12/08/2011 9:51:08 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
By what right do you assume that Mary was a fallen creature when God himself had chosen her as his own? The Bible Tells us that it was because of her disobedience that Eve was to suffer in childbirth. You say you believe in the Virgin Birth. Why then deny a miracle of much less consequence.? Mary was no spirit, but the second Eve, and unlike the first God’s obedient servant. The same Christ who passed through closed doors, who could command the spirits of Elijah and Moses to the top of the mountain, could not come into the world as he pleased and without harm to his mother?

I don't claim any special "right" but spoke about what I believe. I read in Scripture that we have ALL sinned and fall short of the perfection of God. That is why Christ came for us and only he was born, lived and died without sin. If he had even one sin he could not have paid the penalty for anyone else's sin. I do not believe that God made Mary sinless from her conception because that would contradict Scripture. There are no exceptions in that "all" but Christ and that is because he was fully God while fully man. The argument often used is that God cannot look upon sin so he had to have a perfect womb in which to be conceived. That is NOT said anywhere in Scripture, it is NOT logical because God became a man and was surrounded by fallible, sinful people his whole life here on earth. Don't you think there would at least be a few prophecies that addressed the issue? As it stands, the early Christians did not hold to that doctrine and the Catholic Church made no definitive statements about the varying thoughts until 1800 years after Mary had died.

I don't understand the ferocity that comes out of some people when this subject is discussed. Nobody is disrespecting Mary. It isn't disrespectful to see her as a very blessed and faithful woman who in spite of her own sinful nature was chosen by God to bring the Messiah into the world. Did you know that every Jewish woman hoped that her child would be the Messiah? I read that even Eve, when she gave birth to her first child, Cain, she said, "I have gotten a man from the LORD" (Gen. 4:1) The Hebrew words say she said "I have gotten a man EVEN Jehovah". She had already been told that God would provide a Savior and, of course, Isaiah hadn't been written yet, but she thought her son was the one to crush the head of the serpent, Satan.

Finally, like I said, to proclaim that Jesus "passed through the door of Mary's womb" like he did through the doors of the upper room after his resurrection, shows two errors. First, Jesus in his resurrection body was changed from his human, physical one. He was in his "glorified" body. But while he was still in the one that could tire, feel pain and die, he was as solid and human as you and I. There is no Scriptural warrant for saying Mary did not give birth the way all women do. Secondly, it DOES play into the Gnostic mindset to imply that Jesus was spirit only and that he did not inhabit real, human flesh, bones and blood.

God choose Mary, but not for the reasons your church says he did. Plus, think about this, if Mary was without sin from the moment of her natural conception and remained so until the announcement of the angel, then you must also admit that Mary did not have free will to accept the will of God. What would have happened if she said no? If she couldn't say no, then where is her sacrifice, her faith, her reasons for honor? She was just a robot? No, I don't think so either.

123 posted on 12/08/2011 11:39:20 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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