What awakens you at night??
What doubts and/or fears will raise you from a sound sleep?
Posted on 11/28/2011 4:12:34 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
oh; it probably DOES recognize it and encourage it; but ALWAYS wants to leave the door open for deniability.
Ms. Duffy, I don't believe I've ever posted on a thread you started. I used Paragon Defender's name not to rub in the fact that he or she had been banished from this site, but because my introduction to FAIR had come through PD.
I have an interest in history. I've read the Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and a large number of works printed in Ensign, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Sunstone, FARMS Review, other publications of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship, and histories written by non-LDS historians, as well as works that LDS members would consider anti-Mormon, either because they are anti-Mormon or because they take historical views that are not in keeping with LDS faith-promoting history.
I work widely with LDS Scouters who either serve in LDS units or who serve in non-LDS units because they have not received a calling to serve in LDS units. I have for years.
On a dreary Saturday morning, I found myself reading a thread on LDS thought, posted by PD. We exchanged a few pleasant posts about my study of LDS history. I asked PD about why lds.org chose, in its main biography of Joseph Smith, Jr., to list only Emma Hale as his wife. I asked it respectfully. He immediately accused me of being anti-Mormon, which was curious when you consider that i had been raised to use the term LDS because my LDS friends considered "Mormon" to be derogatory.
PD suggested that I would get my answers at fairmormon.org.
So I gave PD the benefit of the doubt and tried to read FAIR. Compared to other works that I read, such as those above, I was not just gravely disappointed, I was shocked at the lack of scholarship. I also grew to be concerned by PD's refusal over countless threads to answer questions, but to direct "Seeker of Truth" to go to FAIR and lds.org for answers. When I went to FAIR and used diagnostic tools, I found that FAIR and its subdomains contained 217,286 pages, plus 5,186 resource papers (many, if not most of which are short papers written with little or no citation of sources exception other papers without sources). How was someone supposed to get an answer from that, if PD could simply answer the question? Particularly when, as I said above, most of FAIR was not footnoted or researched in any academic manner.
And FAIR took positions that are contrary to the LDS church. For example, FAIR recognizes Fanny Alger as Joseph Smith's first wife; LDS.org does not.
As someone already accustomed to reading LDS academic materials, I accepted PD's challenge and found that FAIR was not scholarly or academic in any sense of the word. It was apologetics - ignoring academic research and scholarly techniques, creating strawman arguments, linking fake footnotes 'authorities', disclaiming unfavorable materials by links to stub pages on which FAIR had not yet provided any data other than a statement that FAIR would eventually explain why the discredited materials were wrong.
Paragon Defender didn't get banned because he/she was a Mormon. PD got banned because of a long track record of his/her posting issues.
And I can't discuss why and how I found out that FAIR is a fraud without mentioning PD's name. My own experience with PD was that the moment I asked in good faith if PD could explain why lds.org would list only Emma Hale as Joseph Smith's wife in the official biography, PD snapped back with a nasty reply judging me as anti-Mormon for being curious.
I'm curious about how instant pudding becomes pudding, but that doesn't mean I'm anti-pudding.
What awakens you at night??
What doubts and/or fears will raise you from a sound sleep?
That's attacking the messenger and creating an issue where none exists. Would you suggest it was foul play simply for me to mention Paragon Defender's name when it was relevant to explaining how I learned about FAIR, but not foul play when I was scathingly called "anti-Mormon" by PD for respectfully asking a question?
I've met some anti-Mormons just as I've met some racists. But "anti-Mormon card" often seems to be a convenient charge to throw at anyone who asks questions about the more difficult parts of LDS history and theology.
If I were to say that there are multiple versions of Joseph Smith, Jr.'s First Vision, and that the LDS Church has chosen one of them as the official First Vision despite there being an earlier version written in his own hand, I would likely be called anti-Mormon. But I'm just stating a fact. Jeff Lindsay discussed them thoroughly, and FAIR, in FAIR form, only lists two. LDS.org recognizes and tries to reconcile nine different accounts on a podcast, if I remember my number correctly (I haven't listed to the podcast recently).
So I'm only stating facts from LDS sources. I'm not drawing conclusions. Yet I would frequently be branded as anti-Mormon for pointing out that there are multiple versions of The First Vision and that the LDS Church has chosen not to use the earliest version in Joseph Smith's own handwriting. Of I'd be called anti-Mormon if i noted that the 1832 version in his own handwriting was edited before being placed in The History of the Church; because it was.
I didn't do anything dreadful. Respectfully, to say that I did is histrionics, like the frequent LDS practice of calling anyone who brings up historical facts that are not faith-promoting "anti-Mormon." Sometimes we don't have an agenda. Sometimes we just like objective history or have questions.
Well I sure do!
And that's to let as many people as possible know about the HERESY that is MORMONism!
WOOF!
I’ll settle for being called a dog if that’s what floats your boat.
It’s much better than being identified as a known liar about anything and everything Christian like some mormons on FR.
Woof!
For being called dogs, legion, etc. we sure do get a large return on our small investment.
FAIR, what a joke. Ministry of Propaganda is more like it.
"Jesus Christ, my Savior, Redeemer, and Best Friend - the One who suffered and died for me to save me from my sins.
Oops, there you go again, avoiding WHICH Jesus.
It has become your hallmark.
Apparently, you don't have the courage to come right out and say:
"Of course I believe in the mormon Jesus Christ who was created as a spirit being, came to earth to get an earth suit, was in a polygamous marriage, lived a good enough life to become a mormonic god (one of millions of mormonic gods out there floating around), is in the highest level of the three mormon heavens, living a life of eternal polygamy - and is a separate god from Heavenly Father, who is actually breeding in heaven to make those babies, Heavenly Mother, who is eternally pregnant, and the mormon Holy Ghost, who never got a body because of some indiscretion.
You can see the dilemma. You claim the name of Christ, but as a mormon, change who He is. Unless of course, you are a Christian and DON'T believe in the mormonic Jesus? If that is true, come out from among them and be holy, Saundra. Otherwise, is it fear, embarrassment or deception that keeps you from admitting what you believe?
Saundra, Saundra, you really don’t know how to help yourself. The Roman Catholic Church is a hundred times as large as the LDS. Yet the website to which you refer gets a tiny fraction of the “hits” that www.exmormon.org gets (which is only one of several anti-mormon websites). What does this tell even the casual observer about the wackiness quotient of the LDS?
Mormon doctrine is comic book silly. Mormon history is an exercise in denial.
Another mormon LIAR, pachelbel, stalked anti's in FReepmail. Deliberately lying about Christian Seders, even boasting about it in the FReepmails. What about Ladylawyer? Yeah, she was a piece of work all right. Accused FReepers of being accomplices to murder. Did she get banned simply because she was mormon or the fact that she was a LIAR?
Other mormons, who I had some respect for, jumped on his bandwagon of lies and didn't insist on truthfulness when it was pointed out. He just ignored it. Absolutely NO credibility.
If you can't even face the truth of a lie by one of your own being exposed, why would I expect any of you to even acknowledge that your own "prophets" have been lying to you since the inception of mormonism? Simple, I don't.
You got a problem with us debating the doctrine of your religion, fine, let's go a few rounds. But no, you all can't debate on the merits, got to crawl in the mud like pigs and fling the poo. Cry persecution and victimization when you get your pathetic asses handed to you.
Take your "foul play" and stick it. You have no standing, no credibility.
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Reminds me of a Soros operation.
Wow. Why do Mormons always have to report to a centralized location to get their marching orders? Christians only have to refer to the bible.
And is therefore an invalid source of mormon doctrine or teachings, although they might like to think themselves such.
I'll have to go out and get more cheese to go with all you're whines so far SD. But seems to my memory but a few years ago the mormon mob here sought to silence any opposition to the mormon dominated RF pages through a "hosing the pigs" campaign. Short term memory loss SD?
I think you are referring to a rabid group of mormons called "SPAM" who JR tossed off the site for blog pimping and bad mouthing FReepers. These 'SPAM' nuts were expecting mormons to be trundled off to concentration camps at any moment as well.
Nothing like a nice sugar coating. Ol Pretender went further over the line that that SD.
You do it yourself SD. Trusting in and following a fictitious Christ will result in a fictitious salvation, no matter how sincere you may be.
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