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Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

Posted on 11/26/2011 3:33:54 PM PST by Iggles Phan

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To: Iggles Phan
My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

Ah...

The title FOOLED me!

It SHOULD have pointed out the NARROW definition found here!


There is enough scripture to support all 3 major ways of looking at it; if ones CHOOSES their bible selections carefully.

181 posted on 11/28/2011 5:18:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
The Rapture is clearly spelled out in Scripture, and fallen, unredeemed man denies that major doctrine at their own peril.

Ah...

You got sucked in by the title as well!

182 posted on 11/28/2011 5:20:02 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: bigheadfred
“I like my dog. Well done...”

WOOF!

183 posted on 11/28/2011 5:21:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore
Mocking, put downs, no real discussion, so-called theologians . . .

Quit bashing us, you HATER!!

--MormonDude(Would you like to visit a REAL Temple of GOD? Come to Indianapolis' open house when we finish our's there!)

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-mormon-church-to-build-temple-01242011,0,1022195.story

184 posted on 11/28/2011 5:33:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
Here is MORMONism's own creed:

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.


They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
 

  1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
  2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
  3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
  4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
  6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
  7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
  8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
  9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
  10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
  11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
  12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
  13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith


185 posted on 11/28/2011 5:39:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Reminds me of the Coasters.

Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He’s a clown, that Charlie Brown
He’s gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why’s everybody always pickin’ on me)

Posting a thread before understanding Scripture, then denouncing advanced eschatology studies and accusing it of being sinful, then calmouring about how they are being picked on...


186 posted on 11/28/2011 5:41:31 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Elsie
For example, Mormons can get married in churches, but a temple wedding signifies a more permanent bond.

I guess the following was translated poorly:

Romans 7:2

King James Bible
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.



New International Version
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.


187 posted on 11/28/2011 5:44:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
There is enough scripture to support all 3 major ways of looking at it; if ones CHOOSES their bible selections carefully.

I'm not saying that you personally are guilty of this, but that very attitude expressed in that statement is why we tolerate so much heresy at the expense of the Gospel.

Unfortunately, nominal Christians approach the Scriptures as a way to support their preconceived notions rather than submitting themselves to the authority of the Word. This is how we get the various heresies such as Pelagianism/Arminianism ("Free Will"), Benny-Hinn "miracle" workshops, Gap Theory/Day-Age Evolutionary Origins, Prostitutes for Jesus and Premillennial Dispensationalism.

The Goal is to implement hermeneutics that harmonize the entire body of Scripture, rather than to cherry pick proof-texts, redefine technical terms and then eisegete the remaining missing parts.

Staying within context of the OP, The Futurists reject the most fundamental premise of Scripture, in that the prophets prepare the way for the LORD. Rather the Futurists view the OT as a totally worthless collection of writings and prophecies that bear absolutely no relevance to the past three thousand years of human existence, and only serve as some future puzzle-book for a band of God-hating reprobates that will allegedly be "Left Behind" after this post-Christian Western culture completes making their mess of things.

That is why these Cosmic Chicken Littles spend the vast majority of their time conjuring up camp-fire stories to scare the living Hell out of each other, and justifying their "Everyone is Doomed Except Me So I Will be Anxious Anyway" theories with obscure and vague "Bible Truth"™ hidden deeply in the Scripture via Hebraic acrostic "Bible Codes" that once extracted by modern computer programs, will Divine the Truth better than any Ordained Prophet of God.

It requires total biblical illiteracy to sleep at night after spreading the FUD that makes their hysterical system "work". That is why they have no problems whatsoever in perverting "confirm the Covenant" to mean something totally opposite of its meaning (aka the Covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and boldly assert, through the miracle of circular reasoning, that it can only mean a modern "Peace Treaty authored by the AntiChrist" (even though the idea of AntiChrist proposed in 1&2 John, a half millennia later bares no resemblance to anything they describe here)

There is no "rapture" of any sort that matches the Dispensational scheme. In order to sell this, they must totally reject what Jesus Christ Himself said regarding His Parousia. They must reject the Tares & Wheat Parable. They must reject all of the "this generation", "you", "at hand", "immediately", "very soon" and "now" time references that He made, and replace them, with "thousands of years from now" and "hundreds of generations from now".

Dispensationalists can't agree on three, four, six, seven or eight Dispensations that are "clearly described" in Scripture" yet they totally reject the Two Age model that Jesus Christ and the Disciples consistently and plainly taught.

I submit that gnostic Futurist camp-fire stories where the narrator can trash America (total abuse of the "Curse those who curse you.." clause), condemn their reprobate neighbor, be completely ignorant of Bible doctrine, secular foreign policy and human nature yet somehow be the smartest person in the room by claiming Nostradamus-like ability to parse Ezekiel 38 and various passages from Zechariah, is popular and preferred over giving glory to God and His love for His Church.

188 posted on 11/28/2011 5:52:15 AM PST by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: metmom

The problem with the concept that once a person takes that position there are other portions of scripture that they need to find an alternate interpretation for. It starts an avalanche of having to find or create interpretations that don’t make sense.


189 posted on 11/28/2011 6:05:05 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Iggles Phan; time4good
Most Dispensationalists go to the Book of Revelation to constrive their ‘seven year deal’ with ‘the Antichrist’. But, there are two peculiar things about this: a) Revelation does not mention ‘the Antichrist’, and b) there is no ‘seven year deal’ mentioned anywhere in Revelation.

We all know that the "seven year deal" is synthesized out of a required re-interpretation of the seventy weeks to completely delete the last and most important week - the ministry of our LORD for the first half, and the second half by the disciples in Judea before the Paraclete (at the end of the seven years) sent them out unto the whole world, and to substitute that week of our LORD's ministry into a week of the alleged Antichrist's ministry.

One can successfully argue that when given the chance, Dispensationalists will replace Jesus Christ with Satan at every critical time in prophetic history. They maliciously attribute to "the antichrist" confirming the Covenant, and then rob God of the climax of His work in the last week (his Incarnation, Ministry, Death & Resurrection), only to bestow it upon their Father the Devil as his time of "ministry".

As for 1 and 2 John, you are tossing pearls before swine - they don't read the Bible like you, me and thousands of years of faithful believers - they watch TV and subscribe to newsletters that tell them what they want to hear.

If you view this thread objectively, they are firmly convinced in several gross lies. They reject the historical fact that the Great Tribulation already occurred in and about 70AD. They completely reject the fact that in Christ there are no divisions of the Church between Old Covenant (that doesn't save) Jews, and New Covenant, "the parenthesis" Church. I doubt that they can properly classify the Pharisee Paul as "Jew" or "Christian" under their system since to do so breaks the "logic" of Christ having to deal with "the Jews" hundreds of generations after the sin (the crucifixion) of their ancestors.

They must believe in a 'Second Fall' of regenerated Christians who spent the last seven years in a cosmic rave in order to subscribe to their Millennial Kingdom - this means they must, by necessity, reject the Doctrines of Grace and the Doctrines of Redemption.

They also believe that people can be saved and understand Scripture without the Paraclete (1 Cor 2:14) or else the whole "two prophets" thing doesn't make any sense.

They also must believe that none of the Prophets spoke of Jesus Christ (outside of Isaiah for a couple chapters), never established themselves as prophets by telling of near events that were fulfilled, never saw the Church, never saw the expansion of the Gospel to the whole world, and at no time ever was of particular use to anyone of faith since ALL of the prophecies can only be observed and recognized by those who hate God and would never read the Scriptures (since allegedly ALL Christians, infants, retards and the insane are "raptured" up to heaven)

I have a difficult time trying to find any doctrine that Dispensationalism doesn't attempt to crush under the weight of its vain glorification of Satan.

190 posted on 11/28/2011 6:29:26 AM PST by The Theophilus (Obama's Key to win 2012: Ban Haloperidol)
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To: Iggles Phan

John 17: 15 Jesus said, “I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

You have repeatedly used this verse to show there will be no rapture, but you are taking it out of context. Jesus is praying for his Disciples. Read the entire section.

John 17:12 says, “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

If Jesus was talking about everyone, then he meant we would all be saved except the man of perdition. In this instance he was praying for his Disciples only.


191 posted on 11/28/2011 7:05:59 AM PST by Library Lady
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To: Iggles Phan; F15Eagle; GiovannaNicoletta; metmom; smvoice; boatbums; caww; Quix; Lera
How interesting that you use the word HARPAZO (caught up) and try to attach a similar result each time it is used. You attempt to force the interpretation the rest of the verse on the meaning of that word in another verse.

I Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Notice in that verse where the person ends up?

Acts 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

Philip ended up in a different place didn’t he?

II Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Well, well, again the verse clearly indicates that although he was “caught up” the reason and end destination was different. Each time the word harpazo is used yet the end destination is different. Let’s make a comparison.

Let’s change the word to “traveled”. Each time the person “traveled” to a different place for a different purpose. Compare that to each time you travel. Each time you travel to a different destination but return home. Then you decide to travel to a different place to establish a home in a different state. By your example because we used the word “traveled” we should assume that you will return back to your original home? Would that make sense to you?

Now let’s look at that verse in Thessalonians again.

I Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. You did see the ”ever be with the Lord” in there right? When you traveled that last time was it to ever be in your new home? Or should we assume that because you used the same word to get there that you do not mean that you have really changed your residence? Your reasoning looks more like the flim flam used by the RCC to deceive the people.

192 posted on 11/28/2011 7:26:46 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: ColdSteelTalon
Anyhow opinions vary I think. And in any case it does not have an effect on my salvation. That is secure in Jesus Christ.

What are you doing making sense on this flame bait thread?

193 posted on 11/28/2011 7:35:05 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: The Theophilus
It appears many here reject the study of Scripture provided by many Dispensational authors, even before they understand the meaning.

Let's address the original articles accusations and questions directly.

Before studying, let's face God in prayer, confess our sins to Him, by 1stJohn 1:9 so we have assurance we are returning to fellowship with Him, so that God the Holy Spirit may guide us properly through faith in Christ.

First, let's consider the following statement.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.

A tremendous error is made here, which most Dispensational believers quickly identify. The Rapture and the Tribulation are 2 distinct events discussed in Scripture.

Daniel's 70th week is identifiable with the Great Tribulation and descriptions of the 70th week are associated with the Great Tribulation.

There isn't a simple verse stating the exact time of the Rapture. Many a theological debate could be put to rest immediately on academic grounds, if such a passage exists. Rather, by doctrinal study, eschatology provides the mature believer in Christ by spiritual perception and doctrinal grounding the ability to understand many things to come, which He has provides as a blessing to those who study it.

There is no disagreement between Christian denominations regarding the second coming of Christ. The day and hour isn't known per the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24:36-42 and in Luke's account in Luke 21:34-36. Unlike the 2nd Coming, which has signs of its approach, the Rapture isn't so announced. It occurs like the Great Flood, where people are eating, drinking, and giving one another in marriage. These are not sinful, but conditions common for survival and propagation of the human race.

So the first point needs to be made that the Rapture is distinct from the Great Tribulation, although other doctrinal studies might associate the 2, one preceding the other or intertwining them. (Hence the terms, Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib)

194 posted on 11/28/2011 7:51:22 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Iggles Phan; GiovannaNicoletta; CynicalBear
where to begin with this? It is by dispensationalism that you even KNOW about the Atonement of Christ, they BOdy of Christ, the forming of the Church the body of Christ, the grace of God, the gospel of your salvation, the fulness of the Gentiles being brought in, and the ending of this age of grace. When it will occur and why. You also learn by dispensationalism, that the Body of Christ has been promised BY GOD to be saved from HIS WRATH.(Rom. 5:9). THere is no reason for us to have endure His wrath being poured out on mankind (the Tribulation). We have been reconciled to Him by the blood of Christ. The finished work of Christ. 2 Cor. 5:14-21.

Why would He save us and then pour out His wrath and expect us to endure to the end? You need to put on your common sense cap.

What do you think He is going to do? Take us OUT of the Body of Christ, and OUT of our spiritual seating in heavenly places in Christ, and make us endure to the end? For What? To place us BACK INTO the Body of Christ and re-seat us in heavenly places in CHrist? ONce again, use your common sense. And GOd's word of truth.

195 posted on 11/28/2011 7:55:12 AM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: Lera

A frightful prospect to be judged on used . . . Ktx


196 posted on 11/28/2011 8:04:08 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cvengr
INDEED.

Seems like some of these would be fitting in their cases:

Photobucket

Photobucket

197 posted on 11/28/2011 8:08:49 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: The Theophilus
Y'all are sure good at

MAXIMUM ABSURDITIES in Scripture & history mangling!

Photobucket

198 posted on 11/28/2011 8:10:49 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Library Lady

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


199 posted on 11/28/2011 8:11:48 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; Quix
I sense the time for wisdom about the rapture is over. Blindness has set in. Scoffers do play a role in the end time events. Pastor JD spoke well about this a few weeks ago. The satanic forces know the rapture is coming and think they can handle it.
200 posted on 11/28/2011 8:22:37 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)
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