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To: metmom
The irony of all the Catholic railing about baptism being necessary for salvation, is that even if one believes that to be the case, I don't know a Christian who has not been baptized at some point in their lives. I was infant baptized into the Catholic church.

When I was in Indiana in the midst of a bunch of small non denominational churches, a great deal of them were not baptized, or were baptized as more mature adults.

Well, let us see what else the Bible says about baptism. You argue from the point that certain conditions are required for salvation. We agree that they are there. What else is there?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Luke 3:3-4 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Looks like we have an "and" going here. Unless you take Jesus and John the Baptist off the ticket entirely.

2,957 posted on 12/06/2011 11:09:35 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
When I was in Indiana in the midst of a bunch of small non denominational churches, a great deal of them were not baptized, or were baptized as more mature adults.

It's bound to happen somewhere. Just not in the areas I've lived in, especially considering the high percentage of former Catholics that I've known to attend the Protestant and evangelical churches in this highly Catholic area.

It's still a moot point. even IF baptism were required for salvation, which it's not, I've been baptized. I'm in. Now what?

Well, let us see what else the Bible says about baptism. You argue from the point that certain conditions are required for salvation. We agree that they are there. What else is there?

The only *condition* for salvation that I see is repentance and confession.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Context is everything Mark. Jesus was talking about physical birth. When Nicodemus mentioned physical rebirth, Jesus did not correct him nor did He say that He was talking about baptism.

And when Jesus says this, where's the mention of baptism?

John 3:14-18 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Luke 7:44-50 44Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48And he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." 49Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, "Who is this, who even forgives sins?" 50And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Jesus made no mention of baptism here.

So now if salvation is conditional on baptism, there's a contradiction in Scripture and even in Jesus's own teachings. If baptism doesn't cause salvation, is salvation is not conditional on baptism, then there is no contradiction.

Why don't you think that Jesus death on the cross wasn't good enough that you have to add a work for you to do to it for it to be effective? If salvation were conditional on baptism, why didn't God institute it when He gave the Law? Then everyone could do what the Catholics claim needs to be done. Be baptized, eat flesh and blood, and keep the Law by doing good works and you'll get to heaven?

2,963 posted on 12/06/2011 2:39:18 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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