Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[rzman21]

We could never measure up to the likes of a learned Pharisee like yourself.

[Judith Anne]

Evidently, you cannot read.

[boatbums]

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! For they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves and have perished in the contradiction of Core. Which is a clear New Covenant warning against the old heresy of Core which was the heresy of "the priesthood of all believers". God the Father Himself intervened directly and punished Core along with those who followed him and his heresy. If anyone wants to gamble on some sort of twisted interpretation of the above clear Scripture or pretend that Jude is not a portion of the New Testament and so not a portion of the New Covenant, so be it. By doing so they are either saying that they believe the Bible does contain errors or that God has changed His mind since He had the Holy Spirit inspire Jude warn us of the danger of falling into a heresy the Father clearly hates and takes very personally. Either you admit Jude was inspired and wrote what he wrote so those of us who follow Christ will be warned of the grave error of the heresy of, "the priesthood of all believers", or you're calling the Holy Spirit a liar either for allowing Jude to be included in the canon, or for allowing Jude to write something that was not of God. Either way, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Good luck with that.

This isn't the first time you have brought up this subject of what Jude meant by referring to the "rebellion of Korah/Core". In reading Jude, it is so clear that I'm surprised you continue on this rag about the heresy of "the priesthood of all believers". Especially since Peter is who taught about that very priesthood of all believers. I Peter 2:5 - "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." as well as I Peter 2:9 - "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

I do not see how you can possibly indict Peter as teaching heresy. So I looked into what is called the "Rebellion of Korah". To my surprise, it is NOT as you imply a usurpation of the people over those who are the "real" priests, or the guys in charge, but on the contrary, the sons of Korah were already priests and had authority within the congregation of Israel. But before I get to that, Jude is obviously talking about FALSE brethren, false teachers who would creep in and disrupt and corrupt the church of God.

So, back to Korah, who was he? From http://www.giveshare.org/BibleStudy/203.korah.html:

Korah, along with the Reubenites Dathan, Abiram and On, along with 250 princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown, gathered themselves together against Moses and Aaron, and said, "Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" Numbers 16:1-3. Here was a serious threat to the leadership of Moses over Israel. Korah wanted to push aside Moses, and take control of the congregation (church) of Israel.

Now, who was Korah? He was a cousin of Moses! They both descended from Kohath, one of the sons of Levi, Exodus 6:16-24. The Kohathites had a special responsibility in the sacrificial system: "Their charge shall be the ark, and the table [of shewbread], and the candlestick, and the altars, and the vessels of the sanctuary wherewith they minister, and the hanging [curtain], and all the service thereof," Numbers 3:27-32. The other two sons of Levi, Gershon and Merari, had lesser responsibilities, Numbers 3:14-37. Korah had a leading responsibility in the tabernacle service!

Korah's two chief henchmen were Reubenites, Dathan and Abiram. Were they ordinary laypersons in the congregation of Israel? No! They were both famous in the congregation, Numbers 26:9. They, along with the 250 princes who joined the rebellion, were renowned in the congregation. Numbers 1:16.

So, we see that the Truth is exactly the opposite of what is commonly taught by the leadership of many Churches of God. It is not the ordinary rank and file membership that is the problem in Korah-type rebellions. The problem is the struggle for power among the leadership. Korah and his followers were already great renowned leaders in the congregation of Israel. That wasn't enough for them; they wanted more power, Numbers 16:9. An earthquake swallowed up Korah and his following, and a fire from God devoured those who were offering censers to the Eternal, Numbers 16:16-35.

This problem of a struggle for power has long been a sign among the Church of God. Numbers 26:10 says "And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a SIGN. The censers of these sinners were taken up afterwards and made into broad plates for a covering of the altar, as a perpetual sign unto the children of Israel" Numbers 16:38, 17:10. Surely, the gainsaying of Core (Korah) is a sign unto God's people throughout all ages, Jude 11.

Today, the real lesson of Korah appears to be lost on many in the Church of God. The main problem in the Church is its leadership. Corrupt leadership blames the brethren for being rebellious like Korah, not realizing that the finger points back to them! Korah's rebellion is very similar to that of Lucifer. Not content to serve God in the way God ordained him, Lucifer wanted to ascend above the heavens, and take over the throne of God.

Korah's Rebellion against Moses is a sign, a lesson, for us today. Serve the Eternal with all your heart and mind, being content with the gifts (opportunities) that God has given you to serve His people. Shun those men of renown who struggle for political power, get away from their tents, Numbers 16:26, because God's judgment is coming on them. That is the real lesson of Korah for today. - end -

If we look at Jude, verses 3&4, we see the reason why he was inspired to write this epistle: "I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."

The sin of Korah; the unbelieving Israelites who perished in the desert; the fallen angels; Sodom and Gomorrah; those who have taken the way of Cain; rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; Jude says they have been destroyed in "Korah’s rebellion" (v.11) Then look at what Jude accuses them of doing: " These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves."(v.12) In verse 16, he says "These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage."

But in verses 17-19, he calls the believers to persevere:"But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit." So what should they/we do? "But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh"(vs. 20-23)

He ends with, "To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen." (Vs. 24-25).

So, sorry Rashputin, I do NOT see how you can possibly conclude that the "priesthood of all believers" - taught by St. Peter, himself - is something that should be seen as a grave error and heresy. You have not proved your contention.

[Lera]

I know 2 former hippies , they are both Roman Catholics .
Hitler results were no different than the results of the inquisition . Maybe he thought what he did was ok because they did it first .

Personal freedom with no responsibility ? There is no such thing . The only way to have personal freedom is to be responsible for it .

[caww]

No,... I will not go further than the authors quote, book and the page number,... which is more than sufficient for any to locate if they desire more information........... Just as scriptures are quoted on these threads by all... and location,... which should be sufficient for any to locate if they desire more than what’s quoted.

[Jvette]

****That’s just goofy...****

Not at all, if one cannot see the wonder and glory of God in Mary, one cannot see it in anything He has created, for she is one of His best creations and what He wants from all of us.

****God did not choose the time for becoming manifest in the flesh based on the birth and life of Mary...You’re glorifying the wrong person here...****

I beg to differ. God knew Mary before He created the heavens and the earth. He knew exactly when Jesus would come and through whom He would come and why this particular woman at this particular time.

“But when the fullness of time came, God sent forth his son, born of a woman, born under the law” (4:4).

Mary is a part of that “fullness of time”.

[Jvette]

I have no interest in trying to convince nonCatholics of anything.

I merely defend the faith I have against those who would lie about it.

Thankfully, I know all protestants are not like those here.

Have a nice day:)

[Jvette]

Just as I thought.

Rush calls the media “drive by media” because of stuff like this.

Hit and run.

[Jvette]

They hide behind “duly” noted pages and such.

It is quite evident what the sources of these quotes are and that they are cut and pasted here verbatim. But, it is all above board according to the rules of engagement here.

Pathetic and dishonest, but “legal”.

[caww]

My post was not "drive by media" and I resent that implication. I clearly gave the author, book and page and quote for any to look up....did you?...Did you care enough about what your church practices to see if this author did indeed say as I quoted?

The problem Jvette is you have yet to 'comment on that authors quotes'...nothing.. nada... zip....and that's because it's clear... the author is a catholic bishop...given sainthood and yet there he is elevating Mary above Jesus Christ..even going so far as stating she is above God because He answers to her.....and it's undeniable he's doing so.

So rather than check out the source...and defend the position of your church's beliefs....you resort to this none-sense of backbiting to another poster. How juvenile is that!.... and then people wonder why communication breaks down completely on these threads.

I'll now leave the room as the company has ceased to be informative nor reasonable. And i 'll be certain not to let the door hit me in the rear.

[mitch5501]

Thanks for those scriptures from Jude BB.What precious pearls they are!

"Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 24-25)

Isaiah 55:11 - So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
2 Samuel 9:8 - What is thy servant, that thou shouldest look upon such a dead dog as I am?
Luke 5:8 Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord
Hebrews 13:5 I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Isaiah 46:4 - And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather.....give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
Phillipians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ
Luke 12:32 - Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom

Now unto Him who is able...be glory and majesty,dominion and power,now and forever.

Jesus is Lord.

[caww]

Beautiful response Boatbums....very interesting as well...thank you.

[boatbums]

Amen, hallelujah! Have a blessed night, dear Mitch5501.

[caww]

You and Judith should be ashammed...read the book...at least open it’s pages... and then refute what I’ve quoted if you dare.

[Jvette]

****The problem Jvette is you have yet to ‘comment on that authors quotes’...nothing.. nada... zip....and that’s because it’s clear... the author is a catholic bishop...given sainthood and yet there he is elevating Mary above Jesus Christ..even going so far as stating she is above God because He answers to her.....and it’s undeniable he’s doing so.****

I do not have to refute what you quoted, when it was only the way in which it was quoted and how you came to those particular quotes that raised my objection. I told you I would not comment on incomplete quotes and to post all that was redacted.

I never refuted that what you quoted came from the very source you listed, what I object to is the omission of very large parts of the quote, things left out to deliberately give an impression that is incomplete at best and untrue at worst.

While St. Ligouri may be extreme to some, his theology is sound and grounded in Scripture and a belief in the Second Person of the Trinity, namely Jesus.

Drive by posting is exactly what it was.

Ashamed? Not by a long shot.

[Jvette]

****So rather than check out the source...and defend the position of your church’s beliefs....you resort to this none-sense of backbiting to another poster. How juvenile is that!.... and then people wonder why communication breaks down completely on these threads.****

Oh I checked out the source of your quotes, not the source of the original, but the anti Catholic sites that come up when googling those quotes. As I said, exact quotes, redacted in exactly the same way.

Drive by posting coupled with outrage that the jig is up.

[caww]

the way in which it was quoted and how you came to those particular quotes that raised my objection

And still you do not respond to those quotes but distract and divert by the above statement.

There is nothing at all wrong with the "way" in which I quoted the Bishop. You have the referances.. right to the page number to investigate further.

How I "came to those quotes raised your objections"? Well the book, the title and author were all listed....that's easy enough to discern with out the use of much grey matter.

But more to the point...here you are...'again'..looking for " things not there"...rather than addressing "what is there'...which again proves my prior point that this is why catholics hang themselves time and again.

BTW...Here's some others as well... elevating mary above Christ:

Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, "because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;" and "there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately 'yield to the power of the name of Mary.'"

The Blessed Raymond Jordano says, "that however hardened and diffident a heart may be, the name of this most Blessed Virgin has such efficacy, that if it is only pronounced that heart will be wonderfully softened." Moreover, it is well known, and is daily experienced by the clients of Mary, that 'her powerful name gives the particular strength necessary to overcome temptations' against purity.

[Judith Anne]

You got that right. Source laundering is pretty low.

[caww]

Oh I checked out the source of your quotes, not the source of the original, but the anti Catholic sites

Check out his book Jvette.....the BOOK!... It's in there and any don't need anti-anything sites to establish these are his quotes from his authored book.

[caww]

I gave you ..The Books Title..the author..the page numbers...so why on earth are you ‘looking elswhere’ to confirm or not? Especially since you have high regard for the Bishop.....But instead you continue trying to look “elsewhere”.... looking for something not there will always lead you away from the topic as your recent post ‘again’ attest to.