Gay Episcopal Bishop to Preach at San Francisco Catholic Parish

Catholic Culture ^ | 11/22/11

[marshmallow]

A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.

Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.

[rzman21]

But graven images like the following are perfectly OK for "Bible believers."

[D-fendr]

Now *that* could be called blasphemy.

:)

[rzman21]

Every Catholic or Orthodox church is a temple, and the Mass itself traces its lineage to the Jewish temple.

At the time of the Exodus God had not incarnated, but the Second Council of Nicaea decreed that the veneration of the holy icons was permitted because our God took human form and dwelled among us.

I might add that the Iconoclasts were inspired by the Muslims and their hatred of all images.

The Second Council of Nicaea infallibly decreed the following, which is celebrated on the Second Sunday of Lent as the Feast of the Triumph of Orthodoxy in the Byzantine Church.

And receiving their holy and honourable relics with all honour (τιμῆς), I salute and venerate these with honour (τιμητικῶς προσκυνέω), hoping to have a share in their holiness. Likewise also the venerable images (εἰκόνας) of the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the humanity he assumed for our salvation; and of our spotless Lady, the holy Mother of God; and of the angels like God; and of the holy Apostles, Prophets, Martyrs, and of all the Saints— the sacred images of all these, I salute and venerate— rejecting and anathematizing with my whole soul and mind the synod which was gathered together out of stubbornness and madness, and which styled itself the Seventh Synod, but which by those who think accurately was called lawfully and canonically a pseudo-synod, as being contrary to all truth and piety, and audaciously and temerariously against the divinely handed down ecclesiastical legislation, yea, even impiously having yelped at and scoffed at the holy and venerable images, and having ordered these to be taken away out of the holy churches of God; over which assembly presided Theodosius with the pseudonym of Ephesius, Sisinnius of Perga, with the surname Pastillas, Basilius of Pisidia, falsely called tricaccabus; with whom the wretched Constantine, the then Patriarch, was led (ἐματαιώθη) astray.

These things thus I confess and to these I assent, and therefore in simplicity of heart and in uprightness of mind, in the presence of God, I have made the subjoined anathematisms.

Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.

Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.

Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.

Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.

Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.

This is my confession [of faith] and to these propositions I give my assent. And I pronounce this with my whole heart, and soul, and mind.

And if at any time by the fraud of the devil (which may God forbid!) I voluntarily or involuntarily shall be opposed to what I have now professed, may I be anathema from the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and from the Catholic Church and every hierarchical order a stranger.

I will keep myself from every acceptance of a bribe and from filthy lucre in accordance with the divine canons of the holy Apostles and of the approved Fathers.

Tarasius, the most holy Patriarch, said: This whole sacred gathering yields glory and thanks to God for this confession of yours, which you have made to the Catholic Church.

The Holy Synod said: Glory to God which makes one that which was severed.

[Theodore, bishop of Myra, then read the same confession, and was received. The next bishop who asked to be received read as follows: (col. 60)]

Theodosius, the humble Christian, to the holy and Ecumenical Synod: I confess and I agree to (συντίθεμαι) and I receive and I salute and I venerate in the first place the spotless image of our Lord Jesus Christ, our true God, and the holy image of her who bore him without seed, the holy Mother of God, and her help and protection and intercessions each day and night as a sinner to my aid I call for, since she has confidence with Christ our God, as he was born of her. Likewise also I receive and venerate the images of the holy and most laudable Apostles, prophets, and martyrs and the fathers and cultivators of the desert. Not indeed as gods (God forbid!) do I ask all these with my whole heart to pray for me to God, that he may grant me through their intercessions to find mercy at his hands at the day of judgment, for in this I am but showing forth more clearly the affection and love of my soul which I have borne them from the first. Likewise also I venerate and honour and salute the relics of the Saints as of those who fought for Christ and who have received grace from him for the healing of diseases and the curing of sicknesses and the casting out of devils, as the Christian Church has received from the holy Apostles and Fathers even down to us today.

Moreover, I am well pleased that there should be images in the churches of the faithful, especially the image of our Lord Jesus Christ and of the holy Mother of God, of every kind of material, both gold and silver and of every colour, so that his incarnation may be set forth to all men. Likewise there may be painted the lives of the Saints and Prophets and Martyrs, so that their struggles and agonies may be set forth in brief, for the stirring up and teaching of the people, especially of the unlearned.

For if the people go forth with lights and incense to meet the laurata and images of the Emperors when they are sent to cities or rural districts, they honour surely not the tablet covered over with wax, but the Emperor himself. How much more is it necessary that in the churches of Christ our God, the image of God our Saviour and of his spotless Mother and of all the holy and blessed fathers and ascetics should be painted? Even as also St. Basil says: Writers and painters set forth the great deeds of war; the one by word, the other by their pencils; and each stirs many to courage. And again the same author How much pains have you ever taken that you might find one of the Saints who was willing to be your importunate intercessor to the Lord? And Chrysostom says, The charity of the Saints is not diminished by their death, nor does it come to an end with their exit from life, but after their death they are still more powerful than when they were alive, and many other things without measure. Therefore I ask you, O you Saints! I call out to you. I have sinned against heaven and in your sight. Receive me as God received the luxurious man, and the harlot, and the thief. Seek me out, as Christ sought out the sheep that was lost, which he carried on his shoulders; so that there may be joy in the presence of God and of his angels over my salvation and repentance, through your intervention, O all-holy lords! Let them who do not venerate the holy and venerable images be anathema! Anathema to those who blaspheme against the honourable and venerable images! To those who dare to attack and blaspheme the venerable images and call them idols, anathema! To the calumniators of Christianity, that is to say the Iconoclasts, anathema! To those who do not diligently teach all the Christ-loving people to venerate and salute the venerable and sacred and honourable images of all the Saints who pleased God in their several generations, anathema! To those who have a doubtful mind and do not confess with their whole hearts that they venerate the sacred images, anathema!

Sabbas, the most reverend hegumenus of the monastery of the Studium, said: According to the Apostolic precepts and the Ecumenical Synods he is worthy to be received back.

Tarasius, the most holy Patriarch, said: Those who formerly were the calumniators of orthodoxy, now have become the advocates of the truth.

Byzantine Catholics join with their Orthodox brethren in chanting the following.

Deacon: This is the faith of the apostles! This is the faith of the fathers! This is the Orthodox faith! This faith has established the universe! Furthermore, we accept and confirm the councils of the holy fathers, and their traditions and writings which are agreeable to divine revelation.

And though the enemies of Orthodoxy oppose this providence and the saving revelation of the Lord, yet the Lord has considered the reproaches of His servants, for He mocks those who blaspheme His Glory, and has challenged the enemies of Orthodoxy and put them to flight!

As we therefore bless and praise those who have obeyed the divine revelation and have fought for it; so we reject and anathematize those who oppose this truth, if while waiting for their return and repentance, they refuse to turn again to the Lord; and in this we follow the sacred tradition of the ancient Church, holding fast to her traditions.

To those who deny the existence of God, and assert that the world is self-existing, and that all things in it occur by chance, and not by the providence of God, Anathema!

All: Anathema! (...and after each exclamation.)

Deacon: To those who say that God is not spirit, but flesh; or that He is not just, merciful, wise and all-knowing, and utter similar blasphemies, Anathema!

To those who dare to say that the Son of God and also the Holy Spirit are not one in essence and of equal honor with the Father, and confess that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not one God, Anathema!

To those who foolishly say that the coming of the Son of God into the world in the flesh, and His voluntary passion, death, and resurrection were not necessary for our salvation and the cleansing of sins, Anathema!

To those who reject the grace of redemption preached by the Gospel as the only means of our justification before God, Anathema!

To those who dare to say that the all-pure Virgin Mary was not virgin before giving birth, during birthgiving, and after her child-birth, Anathema!

To those who do not believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets and apostles, and by them taught us the true way to eternal salvation, and confirmed this by miracles, and now dwells in the hearts of all true and faithful Christians, and teaches them in all truth, Anathema!

To those who reject the immortality of the soul, the end of time, the future judgment, and eternal reward for virtue and condemnation for sin, Anathema!

To those who reject all the holy mysteries held by the Church of Christ, Anathema!

To those who reject the Councils of the holy fathers and their traditions, which are agreeable to divine revelation and kept piously by the Orthodox Catholic Church, Anathema!

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema!

To those who dare to say and teach that our Lord Jesus Christ did not descend to earth, but only seemed to; or that He did not descend to the earth and become incarnate only once, but many times, and who likewise deny that the true Wisdom of the Father is His only-begotten Son, Anathema!

To the followers of the occult, spiritualists, wizards, and all who do not believe in the one God, but honor the demons; or who do not humbly give their lives over to God, but strive to learn the future through sorcery, Anathema!

[rzman21]

You find cute Jesus dolls in virtually all Baptist bookstores around the country.

Not to mention the cartoon images of Jesus on Baptist Sunday school materials.

So I guess our graven images are bad because we reject their theology, but it’s OK for them to have commercialized versions.

:)

[rzman21]

The Church was ruled by the Pentarchy at the time of the Second Council of Nicaea. Rejecting it is akin to rejecting the First Council of Nicaea.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pentarchy

[D-fendr]

Thanks for this post. I was just reading a summary of the early councils and we’ll next go through them one-by-one in-depth.

So, you’ve put me well ahead of the class!

What seems to need highlighting as you’ve done is the difference between the OT and NT concerning whether we have seen God “in the form of any figure.”

It is an error some make to read the OT as if the Incarnation never happened.

[metmom]

Do you know the difference between an icon and an idol?

Semantics.

[metmom]

So I guess our graven images are bad because we reject their theology, but it’s OK for them to have commercialized versions.

it's not your graven images that are bad. It's the bowing down to them that's bad.

Try some reading comprehension lessons. Your apparent inability to accurately read the posts in this thread are no different than those for reading Scripture.

[D-fendr]

Semantics.

True, the words have different meanings.

I guess I should have been clearer in my question: Do you know the difference in meaning between icon and an idol?

[D-fendr]

I have infer that this is the way you are to follow the Decalogue according to sola scriptura literalism:

Ignore this one:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth…

But not this one:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them…

[Rashputin]

I know a lady who has a nice collection of Precious Moments and other ceramics of the same sort. Mary, Joseph, Jesus, Abraham, Apostles, Apostles as fishermen in a boat, etc. I've never seen enough difference between any of the various male figures to consider them more than variations on whatever the first one was, same for the female ones. The little kids who have halos and the little angels, those seem to differ from on another a bit more.

Now, she keeps them by her bedside on some low shelves and has a pillow there where she kneels and prays every evening, do you in all honesty think she is bowing down before graven images and if not, why not? I don't see the difference in her remembering various Bible stories by looking at her collection and someone else recalling various Bible stories by kneeling in front of a much better likeness of a Saint, of Mary, or of Jesus. She finds those little things a comfort that help here get in a reverent frame of mind, that's what she says about them.

How about a crucifix? What about the dozens of homes I've been in back when I was a teenager where the folks who worked at the cotton mill almost always had a picture of Jesus in the living room with the family Bible on a small table in front of it. It was their prayer table and they were anything but Catholic, so were they worshiping idols and graven images?

[rzman21]

Some Amish take the graven image commandment a step further, which is why they don’t like getting their pictures taken.

Maybe they shouldn’t kiss grandma’s pictures because isn’t that idolatry? After all, it’s showing affection to a graven image other than God.

[boatbums]

That whole thing is one of total conjecture and “could have been”. It’s amazing how anyone who has the ability to think logically could use that type of unsubstantiated information and conjecture to base their eternal future on.

Oh, I agree, and when stuff like this is considered "trustworthy", it's no wonder that the future dogmas about Mary developed - and continue to develop.

[boatbums]

Oscar the Grouch, maybe. ;o)

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

brevity should be your friend.

so many words, trying to make up for content by quantity.

if i understood this long winded statement, no one has the authority to declare the canon infallibly.

God has apparently left us with what we can only guess is the word of God. God is not powerful enough to protect His Church, let alone the written word.

so the fact that many today use a 66 book Bible, that first came into existence in the 16th century, is no assurance that this is the correct canon.

some “reformer” could come along and say “Hebrews” is not canonical, and they could be right, since no one can infallibly state the canon.

it’s a matter of opinion and your opinion is the same as mine. no authority in either.

thanks for confirming.

if the answer is no one can, how can you be sure what you hold in your hand is really the word of God? [the same Scriptural way and like degree (but more) we can know we have eternal life, (1Jn. 5:13) and that a man of God really is]

i especially loved this answer, i had to repost. ( never took a logic course i presume?

how can we be sure we have the Scriptures? answer: the Scriptural way.

LOL!! you can’t make it up.

[CynicalBear]

>>But graven images like the following are perfectly OK for "Bible believers."<

That would obviously be an injection of an erroneous belief because the ones I know would never allow that in their house.

[D-fendr]

I don’t believe you were on the thread where it came up, but it might save time to know there are some “Bible believer” protestants on here who think other “Bible believer” protestants on here are also engaging in the graven image sin practice.

This can even include wedding rings, anything Christmas, etc.

I think the two camps need to work this out, whether one or the other is engaging in paganism, amongst themselves first.

[2nd amendment mama]

Maybe they shouldn’t kiss grandma’s pictures because isn’t that idolatry? After all, it’s showing affection to a graven image other than God.

You're really being very snarky and childish. There's a huge difference between your stupid comment here and having a statue/image in a grotto in a church with candles to light and a kneeling pad in front of it so that you can kneel and pray to whoever that statue/image is of! See below:

[Rashputin]

"Some Amish take the graven image commandment a step further, which is why they don’t like getting their pictures taken."

I had forgotten all about that. As a kid I used to take pictures of the last few steam locomotives when I'd visit relatives in PA and the Amish would be upset if they thought I was taking their picture. I wonder why none of the Fundamentalists have gone equally as far? If they really believe what they attack others over it seems like at least a noticable number of them would be further along the spectrum like the Amish are. Good point.

Regards

[rzman21]

I stand by my comment.