Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
thanks for that post, but it is greek to me.
i am going to try and have my secretary teach me.
That’s the problem with believing in salvation by belonging to some group. Salvation is a personal belief in and confession that Jesus has paid the final and complete price for our salvation and freely forgives all our sins.
Thanks for your post on formatting.
Also, on long or complex text, using Firefox’s View Selection Source feature (after selecting the text) and copying and pasting can save a great deal of time and trouble.
More disjointed scriptures, aye. Here are a few for you to look up.
Galatians 1:8, Titus 3:9-11. 2 Peter 3:15-17
I am aiming them at your disjointed cherry picking of scripture verses.
Baptism opens the door to salvation, but it does not assure it.
Without baptism, you go to hell, period.
I am often weary of hashing the same arguments with the same posters and there are some times when it makes no sense to keep up the fight. That's why I think it's so important - especially on issues of faith - that we try to remain respectful and remember to "speak the truth in love". Like II Timothy 2:24 says, "And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
I think if we all kept that in mind, much animosity could be avoided but there will always, unfortunately, be people that enjoy quarreling and those that are unable to be kind and not resentful to others who don't see everything the same as they do. To those people, there should always be counterpoints, those willing to step up and defend what is true and who know why it is true. Not everyone will agree but everyone should go away with their dignity still intact. JMHO.
I have no problem with a healthy discussion of faith. What I have a problem with is the stubborn, drive-by posts that do nothing more than slander one side or the other ... which I think is also your point which you summed up quite nicely.
Ack ... you pulled me back into this thread. Drat!
my first post on this thread was a condemnation of the Catholic Church for allowing this.
the plague of child molesting priests is a judgement from God for the Church leaving it’s first love.
JP II scandalized the Church when he invited all the pagan religions of the world to Assisi to “pray” and he failed to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified to them. in essence, he put Jesus on par with muslims, hindus, animalists, buddists, etc etc.
when the Pope no longer declares Jesus as the way, the truth and the life, the falling away predicted by the Scriptures is here and Jesus Christ is at the door to return to earth.
First of all, this Otis Charles creature is a protestant heretic. Inviting him to lead Vespers is inappropriate ... wrong ... inexcusable for that reason alone.
To make matters worse, he's a militant queer who divorced his wife, abandoned his children, and is openly and infamously living in perversion with another male homosexual pervert, in defiance of the Church's God-given teaching on the sanctity of marriage and the purpose of human sexuality. Even if he weren't a protestant heretic, inviting him to lead Vespers (or perform any other ministry on behalf of the Church) is a grave scandal. It is wrong ... inappropriate ... inexcusable to give any appearance of approval to his public embrace of depravity.
that’s the problem with believing the Church is “some group”
the Church is the Body of Christ, not “some group” like the moose club.
Why oh why won’t they ever understand that it is particularly heinous in the RCC, because the Church sets itself up as the ONLY way to salvation. A child who is sexually abused in the RCC loses not only his innocence, but if he tells, he is in mortal fear of losing his only way to salvation. The RCC pedophile priest takes that child’s body AND his soul. And holds over him the “power” to retain or remit that child’s sins forever.
>> The power is Christ’s. Your comment is shear Donatism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donatism
A priest does not lose his sacramental abilities because of his personal unworthiness of his office.
Corruption is found wherever you have human beings. There’s plenty of it to go around in your own sect.
I see that now but the first paragraph ending in a comma was challenged because it occurs verbatim in a banned website. Google shows the phrase with comma in over 1,000 websites. If you are quoting a website, which one?
it’s good that you posted the link to “donatism”, Church history is not a strong suit with these unbelievers.
We’re in agreement upon this point then.
Are you sedevacantist? How do you speak as you do while believing as you do, if not?
AB:And yet, he is not.
Well DUH!!!!! It's not a church I've ever attended where he's a pastor. I've never been to SF and don't plan to go anytime ever. However, I did attend a Catholic church for most of my growing up years and the Catholic church IS the one which INVITED him to lead at the Nov 30 service. And I AM out of there.
mm: What does the Catholic church ...
AB: This pervert, again, is protestant ... and should serve as a reminder to protestants of the unwisdom of throwing stones while living in glass houses.
Read the article. That pervert was INVITED BY THE CATHOLIC PARISH TO LEAD IN ONE OF IT'S SERVICES.
What's up with that?
Is there something in Scripture that is unclear about not associating with someone who is immoral who calls himself a brother that Catholics don't get?
Is there a problem with the interpretation of that?
1 Corinthians 5:9-11 9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
Where does this Catholic parish get off INVITING him to lead one of their services?
So what are Catholics doing with participating in communion with Catholic priests who are gay and who molest children? They haven't been defrocked, but rather are protected and excused and permitted to continue with their priestly duties in administering sacraments.
What an abomination and affront to Christ. Might as well just spit in His face and pound the nails in themselves.
And then Catholics have the chutzpah to preach at others about immorality?
Can you say *hypocrisy*?
Because God promised us we could know.
And we believe Him.
Imagine that. Thinking that God is telling us the truth in Scripture. What a novel concept.....
Here’s more on Donatism
Donatism was a controversy that arose within the Orthodox Church during the early fourth century. The controversy resulted in a schism that later was condemned as a heresy. The controversy was largely an issue with actions of an ascetic, extremest sect in the western Church, confined mostly to the Roman province of Africa. The controversy centered on a single issue arising out of the persecutions of the early fourth century. That was how should those who lapsed during the persecutions be accepted back into the Church, especially lapsed clergy. Doctrine was not involved.
History
The origins of the schism resulted from the disagreement between members of the sect, later called Donatists, and other members of the Orthodox Church. The Emperor Diocletian, during his rule of the late third and early fourth centuries, instituted persecutions, particularly those of 302 to 305 that centered on Christians. He blamed them for the plagues and pestilences that swept western empire that caused economic and social instability. These persecutions were most intense in Roman north Africa, around Carthage. Those Christians who lapsed, that is made offerings to the Imperial divine cult and Roman state gods and destroyed their sacred Christian writings, were spared by the government. Those who did not were imprisoned and usually killed. As possession of Christian literature was often the factor used to determine who was a Christian, the members of the clergy were among those most vulnerable to persecution. While many were martyred, many had lapsed.
With the death of Diocletian in 305 and Constantine the Great’s declaration of the Edict of Milan in 313, the persecutions ended. As peace came to the Church, the Church had to face reconciliation of those who had lapsed and wished to return to the Church, particularly among the clergy. While the Church, in general, followed the course of penance and forgiveness, in Africa a strong sense of ascetic purity arose. The members of this “purity” sect expressed strong feelings against those who had lapsed, referring to them as traditors, Christians who had betrayed other Christians. The sect members would not accept any repentance by those whom they considered too be traditors and were not fit for further membership in the Church.
The issue came to a head in 311, Caecilian was consecrated bishop of Carthage. His consecration was disputed by many Carthaginians because one of the three consecrating bishops, Felix, bishop of Aptunga, had surrendered copies of the Scriptures to Roman persecutors and was considered a traditor. A subsequent council of some seventy “purist” bishops formalized the dispute and declared Caecilian’s consecration invalid. They then elected as bishop Majorinus, who had denounced “Roman collaborators” and refused to reconcile clergy who had lapsed. After he died in 315, the schismatics elected Donatus of Casae Nigrae, a Berber Christian, as bishop of Carthage. In his long tenure (315 to 355) he became the spokesman for the sect and lent his name as the identity for the schismatics, the Donatists.
In addition to their practice of aesthetic and extreme purity, the sect’s practice of re-baptizing lapsed Christians was offensive to the Orthodox. While the established church would accept lapsed clergy back to serve after a period of penance, the Donastists declared that they were ineligible to perform the sacraments. The sect’s practices were condemned at the Orthodox Synod of Arles in 314 and by the emperor, Constantine I. In 316, the Donatists formed their own hierarchy and split from the Church.
The Donatists schism grew until, by 350, they outnumbered the Orthodox in north Africa. Each city had both an Orthodox and a Donatist bishop. The tide did not turn against the Donatists until the fifth century when St. Augustine in his writings and debates with Donatist bishops in Carthage strongly challenged their position. The Donatist movement then waned greatly, and they completely disappeared under the force of the Muslim conquests of the seventh century.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Is Jesus God? Is the Father God? Is the Holy Spirit God?
Do you not comprehend? My “sect” doesn’t teach people that outside their religion, there is no salvation. That sexually abused RC child thinks he has no other place to go, if he wants to go to heaven. He has been taught to believe that the RCC is the only way. So, it’s stay in the Church and endure the abuse, or leave the Church and end up in hell. THis is what Catholicism has done to people. Don’t you understand the difference between being able to leave a place that is abusing you, and NOT being able to leave because they have told you there is NO OTHER PLACE YOU CAN GO IF YOU WANT TO BE SAVED??
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