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To: Natural Law; daniel1212
Have you ever asked yourself how we can take as credible anything said by those who claim to have been Catholic and rejected it when everything they say about the Church is such a compete fabrication? There is no "blind obedience" demanded of anyone.

CCC 144 - To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to "hear or listen to") in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment.

It hardly matters if you accept my testimony as credible. The "blind obedience" you deny is stated in many places within your group's documents. Perhaps you missed post #3264 from daniel1212. He included additional references besides the Canon212 from Vatican II:

►VEHEMENTER NOS, Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906:

It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body only rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end; the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastor

► http://baltimore-catechism.com/lesson12.htm:

Q. 554. Could a person who denies only one article of our faith be a Catholic?

A. A person who denies even one article of our faith could not be a Catholic; for truth is one and we must accept it whole and entire or not at all.

►“Once he does so (joins the Catholic church), he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason like a lantern at the door.” (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

►“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”

“...outside the pale of Rome there is not a scrap of additional truth of Revelation to be found.”

“He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-----questions of religion-----to an authority located in Rome.”

“Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” - “Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )

Obey blindly , that is, without asking reasons. Be careful, then, never to examine the directions of your confessor....In a word, keep before your eyes this great rule, that in obeying your confessor you obey God. Force yourself then, to obey him in spite of all fears. And be persuaded that if you are not obedient to him it will be impossible for you to go on well; but if you obey him you are secure. But you say, if I am damned in consequence of obeying my confessor, who will rescue me from hell? What you say is impossible." St. Alphonsus De Liguori, True Spouse of Christ, p 352, Benziger Brothers, NY

►PRAECLARA GRATULATIONIS PUBLICAE, Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII, June 20, 1894

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ.. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm

The leadership of the Apostolic See has always been active, and therefore because of its preeminent authority , the whole Church must agree with it." (On Faith And Religion), Encyclical promulgated on November 9, 1846, #11. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quiplu.htm

Nope, I am hardly imagining or fabricating anything at all and there is, as you should know, much more than these that prove the point.

3,348 posted on 11/21/2011 9:36:42 PM PST by boatbums ( Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums; Natural Law
Faith and Reason is an excellent topic. You should find this most interesting:

ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON
JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

3,351 posted on 11/21/2011 9:48:40 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: boatbums
I provided some examples of requirements of obedience, but the reality is that there is conflict here, as in other things, and in which RCs interpret Rome differently, with some exhorting implicit obedience to all Rome teaches, and others restricting it to infallibly defined dogma, which is officially required, provided you can know the difference. And even then Ratzinger taught, "Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. “ (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II, ed. Vorgrimler, 1968, on Gaudium et spes, part 1,chapter 1.).

As regards changes, there can be validity to such, in which what was forbidden in past times might now be allowed now due to different circumstances, and there is a difference btwn dogma and church law (thus clerical celibacy could be changed, though RCs defend it as if it were immutable), and teachings of the supreme "infallible" magisterium versus the Ordinary (which some also divide into a General magisterium as well), into which the majority of RC teachings and practices are held to fall into, and in which some degree of dissent as well as interpretive disagreement is allowed, (which involves some interpretation as to which category teachings belong to, and how much one may dissent), in which area even RCAs disagree with each other . And with just the "Bulls" of the popes from 540 to 1857 behind said to fill 41 volumes, there is much to reconcile. In addition is the great liberty the RC has to interpret the Bible to support Rome, as few specific verses are held to have been infallible defined, although how many if any is a matter of some interpretation, as is things like whether the stamp protects from error.

But in many thing Rome has autocratically redefined what she meant, and is attacked from those in the Catholic sedevacantist schism, being her most acerbic critics outside some in Protestantism, even going so far as to deny the validity of Vatican 2. http://www.the-pope.com/wvat2tec.html

3,398 posted on 11/22/2011 8:39:40 AM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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