Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism

The Catholic Thing ^ | 10/28/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

[MarkBsnr]

Actually, in the Eastern Church, the proper stance for prayer and worship is STANDING! (No pews in old country churches)

Nicea, 325 proscribed kneeling prayer on Sundays during Mass. The West did adopt the penitential attitude during much of the Mass, but the laity rises when they pray.

[MarkBsnr]

We do.

Not in any Catholic mass I've ever seen. Therefore we can conclude that Catholics don't do it at all.

You claim to have been Catholic, yet know so little about the Faith. How is this possible?

[CynicalBear]

>> We say that (since Islam is considered an offshoot of both Christianity and Judaism) they have a very imperfect view of the Perfect God.<<

You go right ahead and think that Islam is an “offshoot” if you want to. And if you think the LDS has the same God have at it. I’ll tell you the God I serve is NOT the same god that Islam or the Mormons serve.

The contention of the CC that Islam and Catholics serve the same god is abominable as well as the contention by both CC and LDS that men become gods.

[MarkBsnr]

You go right ahead and think that Islam is an “offshoot” if you want to. And if you think the LDS has the same God have at it. I’ll tell you the God I serve is NOT the same god that Islam or the Mormons serve.

Again, their view is lousy. But we may say the same thing about the Arians, the Nestorians and even the Campbellites. Do you consider them Christian, pseudo Christian, or non Christian?

[MarkBsnr]

You go right ahead and think that Islam is an “offshoot” if you want to. And if you think the LDS has the same God have at it. I’ll tell you the God I serve is NOT the same god that Islam or the Mormons serve.

Again, their view is lousy. But we may say the same thing about the Arians, the Nestorians and even the Campbellites. Do you consider them Christian, pseudo Christian, or non Christian?

[Gamecock]

An even more important question is outward signs of piety vs. what God sees in your heart.

I suspect God is more pleases with a Protestant praying standing, laying down, standing on their head, etc with a sense of awe and reverence in their heart than a Roman Catholic on their knees out of habit, who can’t wait to get home for dinner.

[TexConfederate1861]

Wrong. There was plenty of authority from the Bishops of the five patriarchates. Read the didache, read the writings of St. John Chrysostom, the earliest liturgy was the Liturgy of St. Justin Martyr. (100 AD) St. John lived around 300 AD. St. Ignatius lived in the 100’s, and was an early martyr.....this blows your 400 AD theory all to heck. There is plenty of documentation to back me up, you have NONE, which is why you won’t post it.

[CynicalBear]

Christians are those who believe in Jesus the second “person” of a triune God as Lord and Savior. Non Christians do not believe in Jesus, the second “person” of a triune God as Lord and Savior. Muslims and Mormons do not believe in that same Jesus.

Errant Christians on the other hand are a different matter.

[Natural Law]

"No, you would have to prove that there was an overall governing authority."

What were you thinking? Don't you know that the ground rules for this debate are that Catholics are the ones who have to prove the negative?

[TexConfederate1861]

And I suppose you know that RC is doing so out of habit. Kinda like that SBC preacher I knew who would cut short his sermon to be in time for the super bowl.

[D-fendr]

I've never seen a more protected group in my life.

There are also Protestant Caucus threads of more than one flavor.

[Natural Law]

"Not in any Catholic mass I've ever seen."

I guess that is just one more thing you didn't pay attention to when you were a Catholic (if you ever really were).

"Therefore we can conclude that Catholics don't do it at all."

Is there a mouse in your pocket or were you using the royal "we"?

[TexConfederate1861]

Yep. Like my great-uncle, Baptist Preacher who argued that the Baptists were the early church, founded by John the BAPTIST dontcha know?......LOL

[D-fendr]

I heard Islam described as Christian heretic in either its formation or theology. I can see some accuracy in that view.

[Natural Law]

"Actually, in the Eastern Church, the proper stance for prayer and worship is STANDING!"

Pews are a relatively modern development in the Latin Rite Church as well. The first seating wasn't introduced until the 13th century when stone benches were placed against the walls. It took the Reformation to introduce the idea of permanent seating since their services were not at all participatory.

Another interesting fact was the that the communion rail was put in place to keep the animals brought as offerings off the altar.

[TexConfederate1861]

Now wait a minute....that definition doesn’t include you, since you are obviously a NESTORIAN. Since you favor the term “CHRISTOTOKOS” to refer to the Mother of God, you could NEVER believe in two natures! (SARCASM)

[Natural Law]

"The contention of the CC that Islam and Catholics serve the same god is abominable as well as the contention by both CC and LDS that men become gods."

Only polytheists acknowledge the existence of more than one God and actual Christians are monotheists.

[D-fendr]

A big problem with “Christokos” is that Christ means “anointed” as was, for example, David. So you’d have David’s mother, Nitzevet, as Christokos also. No divine nature required for this title, thereby, again, heresy.

[MarkBsnr]

Christians are those who believe in Jesus the second “person” of a triune God as Lord and Savior. Non Christians do not believe in Jesus, the second “person” of a triune God as Lord and Savior. Muslims and Mormons do not believe in that same Jesus.

Errant Christians on the other hand are a different matter.

It could be considered a matter of degree. For instance, would you consider Oneness Pentecostals Christian? How about the Christadelphians? Any form of Unitarianism? The Swedenborgians? Branch Davidians? Where does one draw the line?

[D-fendr]

The consequence is that we are left essentially having to defend Mozart to the deaf and Michelangelo to the blind.

Then along comes a new FReeper who thinks he's bringing brand-new revelation to the site.

For the twentieth time...