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To: daniel1212; CynicalBear
“All” in essence, sure, but its the developed details that have been the issue

The question is, where does the Scripture teach purgatiory as a place of final purification of a saved believer? I gave the answer and you agreed "in essence". Like in any question, multiple interpretations of an allegorical passage exist; that does not change the answer.

2nd coming, not commencing at death

This reading is possible, but not the only possible. The passage simply says that the man is tested according to his works and that the Day of the Lord shall make the results of the test manifest. It does not say that the testing itself occurs at the second coming.

not one's own character defects which gains him entrance into glory, but the fruit of such

This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.

that of converts

The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"

458 posted on 10/26/2011 6:09:05 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; daniel1212
>>The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"<<

What is the “work” of a leader, teacher, or pastor of a church?

462 posted on 10/26/2011 6:36:10 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: annalex; CynicalBear; daniel1212; metmom
This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.

The weird thing is, even if you are correct annalex, your Church is DOOMED by these very verses. Please note:

"According to THE GRACE OF GOD which is GIVEN UNTO ME, as a wise MASTERBUILDER, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another buildeth THEREON. But let every man take heed how he buildeth THEREON. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:10,11.

Just more of Paul's megalomaniacal talk? Or did he indeed lay the foundation of the Grace of God? Of course it was laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ, just as the foundation of the Messianic Church was laid by Peter and the 11, on Jesus Christ. They are both laid with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. But Peter's has to do with a Kingdom of believers. And Paul's has to do with a body of believers, the church the body of Christ. Now here's the interesting part for Catholics.

If Grace is what the Church is being built on today, and some religious organization attempts to build upon this grace foundation with traditions, doctrines of men, Kingdom promises, Kingdom gospels, Kingdom commissions, Kingdom commands, Kingdom works for righteousness, etc., which of those "works" will survive the fire when tried by the gospel of the Grace of God foundation? Answer: NONE. They are built on another foundation, the Kingdom.

You can argue all you want about this. But the simple wording says it all. Paul laid this foundation of grace, built on the risen Christ, through direct revelations of Christ. It was to form the Church the Body of Christ. If any works are performed contrary to this foundation, for this time, they are worthless. Wood, hay, stubble.

466 posted on 10/26/2011 7:26:47 AM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: annalex; CynicalBear
>“All” in essence, sure, but its the developed details that have been the issue<

The question is, where does the Scripture teach purgatiory as a place of final purification of a saved believer? I gave the answer and you agreed "in essence". Like in any question, multiple interpretations of an allegorical passage exist; that does not change the answer.

You originally did not state the final part, and the question is where does 1Cor 3 teach a place where the soul already saved by Christ's grace alone goes upon death to undergo purification by burning off their inferior works so that it can it enter heaven, which the CCC (1030) says is in order to "achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." However, all you can use 1Cor. 3 for is to support a time when works will be tried by fire to see what sort they are, burning up the flammable ones, but the fire is not purging them so they can enter Heaven, as it is not works being burned up that gets one the reward. It is those whose works abide who get a reward (indicated to a crown of rejoicing: 1Thess,. 2:19; 2Cor., 1:14; Phil. 2:14-16), and those whose works are burned shall be saved despite this. If this was teaching the reward was Heaven then those whose fruit did not remain would be the subject of reward. Instead this is speaking about reward for service, for those who are already in Heaven.

>that of converts <

The text speaks nothign of "converts"; it says "every man's work"

It does not say it is things of the soul being purified, but what it best “speaks” of in context and by typology is converts. The subject is the condition and the building of the church, which Paul and Apollos are building, and believers are the building, the increase which God gave Paul (the planter) and Apollos (the waterer). (1Cor. 3:1-7) But while it is God who gave the increase, or crop, the workers who sowed and watered (which are one though they may be many), will receive a reward according to their own labor. (1Cor. 3:8,9) The Corinthians in particular were the work of Paul “as a wise masterbuilder” of the church, whose foundation was a person (v. 10) and which itself is built upon persons (Eph. 2:20) and a reward is given if what man builds upon that foundation endures the fire (and again, losing such does not mean a loss of salvation). And that Paul calls them “my work in the Lord” and who would be his rejoicing in the day of the Lord, (1Cor. 1:14; 9:1) and that believers are referred to as stones, “built up a spiritual house.” (1Pt. 2:5) all works to define “any man's work” as being converts.

>not one's own character defects which gains him entrance into glory, but the fruit of such<

This is not a distinction that means anything, let alone invalidated the Catholic teaching which generally and biblically holds that we are tested by our works.

Believers are judged according to works, as these manifest both the heart and what manner of faith . But if was character defects that were lost in order to gain entrance to Heaven, that being the Reward, then those whose works were consumed would receive the reward, rather than being saved even though those they built the church with failed.

>2nd coming, not commencing at death<

This reading is possible, but not the only possible. The passage simply says that the man is tested according to his works and that the Day of the Lord shall make the results of the test manifest. It does not say that the testing itself occurs at the second coming.

The point is what the judgment is for, the reward being entrance into Heaven or crowns to greater glorify God with, and the basis for which. What is clear is that the day of the Lord was the time of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with His own, and by the gathering together of those on earth unto him,” (2Thes. 2:1; 3:13) and of judgment on the world. (2Pt. 3:10,12) And which would come quickly when it did, “as a thief in the night,” (1Thes. 5:2) and was the time of the Lord giving to every man his reward according as his work shall be. (Rv. 22:12) And as said, if He came in the first century or now, then all the believers would meet the Lord in the air, along with all other believers, and rather than going to purgatory, they would henceforth be with the Lord, and receive reward for their manner of work as per 1Cor. 3. To God be the glory.

516 posted on 10/26/2011 6:50:43 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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