Both the Particular Judgment and the Last Judgment are in the future relative to the life of the reader.
I think just being in the presence of Christ shall set the lost on fire […] in that day.
The extended quote about the fire and stubble, by the way, was from Malachi, not Matthew, -- an important distinction since the Old Testament simply did not have the concept of two judgments. Everyone agrees with you on this – this is why there is no reason to think that the combustion occurring in the sight of Christ shall be delayed till the Second Coming. Remember, the Judgment occurs at the time of death; at the Second Coming we have the manifestation of the existing multiple particular judgments to all, and to the living, and the judgment of the living.
the day will manifest that, but the way it does is by the fire which consumes the stubble and not the precious.
These quotes indeed describe fire at the Last Judgment, but note that the fire described in Matthew 13:40-43 is not the fire from which one emerged saved. It is the fact that the fire in 1 Cor. 3 is cleasning rather than annihilating that allows us to the description of the purgatory in it.
Under this premise [the Church] can autocratically declare what she will as being infallible, and so it is.
Well, she has the raw power to do so. It is like a general in the field has the raw power to command his troops to treason. This can be said of any delegated power, but it does not mean that the delegated by Christ power of the church is not legitimately delegated, or that she will lead people to apostasy because technically she can. We live by faith.
their goal is to bring us to forsake our appeal to it as such, and instead submit to Rome
Yes. The reliance on the scripture alone is a vicious circle that ends in loss of faith, and of course you should go to the source of the scripture with all your questions and doubts. That source is Christ in Heaven and His Church on earth.
As far as speculation, that is what Rome does much engage in, from the perpetual virginity and sinlessness and bodily ascension of Mary to purgatory
The Church does not speculate. The Church has the knowledge of the truth revealed to her, and she reveals it to the flock, first through the Christian scripture – which you seem to acknowledge, and also, as the flock matures, through the magisterial teaching every day. “the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you” (John 14:26)
As regards 2 resurrections, that has real support for it
Perhaps. Thanks.
you make that “the day” to be merely declarative of the results of an earlier fire, that of the “particular judgment” which is asserted to take place at death
Yes, correct. I “make that” because the church teaches that.
… but purgatory is the only place i see the CCC teaching a postmortem fire, and which is only for the imperfect believers
You did not turn the page. Here it is:
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
610 1 ⇒ Jn 3:14-15.
611 Cf. ⇒ Mt 25:31-46.
612 Cf. ⇒ Mt 5:22, ⇒ 29; ⇒ 10:28; ⇒ 13:42, ⇒ 50; ⇒ Mk 9:43-48.
613 ⇒ Mt 13:41-42.
614 ⇒ Mt 25:41.
615 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12.
616 ⇒ Mt 7:13-14.
617 LG 48 # 3; ⇒ Mt 22:13; cf. ⇒ Heb 9:27; ⇒ Mt 25:13, ⇒ 26, ⇒ 30, ⇒ 31 ⇒ 46.
We can only agree that there is a postmortem test by fire which will burn up inferior works,
That is not a small agreement, actually. You seem to agree with the kernel of the teaching on the purgatory, but you have questions about its timing and precise nature. Everyone does. The Church actually teaches little about the purgatory because there is little we know.
Scripture explicitly confirms that Israel was uniquely the instrument of Divine written revelation and the stewards of it, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) yet Scripture explicitly confirms that they were not assuredly infallible, nor was this needed in order for writings to be established as Divine, and for truth to be preserved.
That is because the Jews rejected Christ and became the persecutors of the Church. To say that someone (Luther?) came and condemned the Church in the same way as Christ came and condemned the Jews is to stop believing in Christ as one Savior for all ages, Who also promised the victory to the Church, and destruction to her enemies.
The Truth of God today is established as being the church of the living God today only insofar as it manifests conformity to the Scriptures in doctrine, love, holiness and in power, with the gospel of grace effecting manifest regeneration with its fruits.
Of course. This is why I am Catholic, and you -- you must become.
That’s what the Mormons say of their prophets. That’s what the Muslims say of their prophet. That’s what the pagans say of their gurus, shamans, and other assorted “holy men”.
Both the Particular Judgment and the Last Judgment are in the future relative to the life of the reader.
In context and as quoted, by “future” i meant that this refers to the “day of the Lord” which is not when one dies but is a future period.
>“For behold the day shall come kindled as a furnace: and all the proud, and all that do wickedly shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall set them on fire, saith the Lord of hosts, it shall not leave them root, nor branch. “ (Mt. 4:1; cf. Mt. 3:12; 13:41-43) ..I think just being in the presence of Christ shall set the lost on fire […] in that day...<
The extended quote about the fire and stubble, by the way, was from Malachi, not Matthew, -- an important distinction since the Old Testament simply did not have the concept of two judgments.
My mistake, while the provided cross references to Mt. are correct and refers to the day of the Lord.
Everyone agrees with you on this – this is why there is no reason to think that the combustion occurring in the sight of Christ shall be delayed till the Second Coming. Remember, the Judgment occurs at the time of death; at the Second Coming we have the manifestation of the existing multiple particular judgments to all, and to the living, and the judgment of the living.
How can you say combustion occurring in the sight of Christ is not that of the day of the Lord, in the light of the multiplicity of texts which shows that the actual judgment according to what one has done awaits the day of the Lord? And which judgment is not a mere declaration of a previous judgment that determines their sentences.
Those who are lost are already under a curse and judgment as they have no covering for their sins, and thus will die in them, (Jn. 8:24) thus “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth [present tense] on him.” (Jn. 3:36b) The difference now is that such may yet repent, and they do not yet suffer the deprivation of anything positive nor the realization of wrath, which they shall in their postmortem existence if they die in their sins. Because they are sinners with a savior, the lost do suffer in Hell beginning at death, (Lk. 16:9-31) while the redeemed of the Lord who now “sleep” are with the Lord, as the clearest texts show, (Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2Cor. 5:6-8; Phil. 1:23; 1Thes. 4:17) but as the lost have no savior they now must be punished in accordance with their sins, and this actual sentencing of the lost as to how great their punishment will be, and the corresponding giving of rewards to the redeemed, awaits the Lord's return. A text you invoke for support, Heb. 9:22, does not specify how soon after, but in context refers to the second coming.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)
The Matthean section is also referring to judgment and combustion at “the end of this world,” not at one's death.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world." (Matthew 13:40) "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just," (Matthew 13:49)
Add to this,
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:" (Matthew 25:31-32)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." (Matthew 25:41-43)
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”
"But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city." (Luke 10:12)
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)
"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." (Acts 17:31)
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" (2 Peter 2:9)
“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;” (Rom 2:5)
More have been and can be provided, and this day of wrath and revelation is when the fire consumes the lost:
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." (2 Thessalonians 1:8-10)
>the day will manifest that, but the way it does is by the fire which consumes the stubble and not the precious.<
These quotes indeed describe fire at the Last Judgment, but note that the fire described in Matthew 13:40-43 is not the fire from which one emerged saved.
The only fire Scripture reveals as commencing at death is not purgative, but punitive, (Lk. 16:19-31) nor is the believe seen as suffering, but just the opposite, while the second coming of the Lord is not simply associated with revelation of who is saved and rewarded, but actual fire which tests every man's work by that Man whose eyes are a flame of fire, (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12) who at His coming shall give every man according as his work shall be. To reiterate, the lost, being already damned by rejection of Christ, shall suffer according to their guilt, (Rv. 20:12-13) while those redeemed by effectual faith, shall be rewarded according to their works of faith. (1Cor, 3)
Mt. 13:40-43 speaks of the manner of punishment for those who are lost, but not the details of the particular judgment at the end, as to their particular degree of punishment due to particular sins, and which others texts shows occurs in the day of the Lord.
And if the last judgment is when the lost are judged according to their works, and is when they are burnt accordingly, then this supports this time as being when the fire shall try every man's what sort it is, and believers are recompensed according to their works, as 1Cor. 3 teaches. But as with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego whom the Lord was with, (Dan. 3:19-25) this fire test shall not touch true believers. (While you may want to employ this typology for purgatory, it did not burn up their negative character defects, plus they were with the Lord in His presence. To the glory of God. )
"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)
It is the fact that the fire in 1 Cor. 3 is cleasning rather than annihilating that allows us to the description of the purgatory in it.
That is not RC purgatory, as again, the works being lost are not character defects (though they reflect that) which enable them to enter glory, but are works which should have endured, as those of them who are rewarded did, while those who lost works are not saved because they lost works, but despite this loss. In other words, the fire test is for rewards, and is not entrance into Heaven, and thus the loss of works results in loss of rewards, not the gaining of Heaven because they lost them.
Under this premise [the Church] can autocratically declare what she will as being infallible, and so it is.
Well, she has the raw power to do so. It is like a general in the field has the raw power to command his troops to treason. This can be said of any delegated power, but it does not mean that the delegated by Christ power of the church is not legitimately delegated, or that she will lead people to apostasy because technically she can. We live by faith.
The problem is that the general is his own authority, and has autocratically arrogated to himself power based upon the premise that no one can say he is wrong because he claims to define right and wrong. Thus does Rome, and fosters faith in herself as assuredly infallible, while the only transcendent material class of revelation which is assuredly perpetually infallible is Scripture, and reveals that no man is worthy of such a claim, nor is assured spiritual authority and that of the New Testament church established after the manner of the assuredly infallible magisterium of Rome.
>their goal is to bring us to forsake our appeal to it as such, and instead submit to Rome<
Yes. The reliance on the scripture alone is a vicious circle that ends in loss of faith, and of course you should go to the source of the scripture with all your questions and doubts. That source is Christ in Heaven and His Church on earth.
What is a viscous circle is that of Rome, in which according to her interpretation (or decree) only her interpretation (or decree) is correct in any conflict. Under that premise you can “prove anything, and it is not dependent upon the weight of evidence. In contrast, Scripture, being established by its Divine qualities, effects and attestation, is what instrumentally provides faith, (Rm. 10:17) as is the assured Word of God, (2Tim. 3:16) and the supreme standard for obedience and testing truth claims*) , and persuading souls by it is dependent upon manifestation of the truth. (2Cor. 4:2; Acts 17:2)
As or the premise that being an instrument of revelation equates to assured infallibility, the source of the Scripture is indeed Christ, via the Holy Spirit who used imperfect instruments to express His perfect word, and Scripture subjects His own instruments to it, (Mk. 7:3-13) and the authority of the latter is dependent upon conflation with Scripture and its attestation of truth. And again, if being the instrument of revelation conferred perpetual infallibility then Christianity would not exist, as unlike the church of Rome, Scripture explicitly states the Jews were both instruments of revelation and stewards of it, but were not assuredly infallible, but her magisterium was subject to reproof from Scripture by those outside the magisterium. While "the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power," (1 Corinthians 4:20) Rome's claim to supremacy is that of self-proclamation, so much so that her defenders repeat it as a substitute for an argument for it, while those who are truly part of His church need to reject many of her claims.
>As far as speculation, that is what Rome does much engage in, from the perpetual virginity and sinlessness and bodily ascension of Mary to purgatory<
The Church does not speculate. The Church has the knowledge of the truth revealed to her, and she reveals it to the flock, first through the Christian scripture – which you seem to acknowledge, and also, as the flock matures, through the magisterial teaching every day. “the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you” (John 14:26)
Worse, she teaches as dogma some things which should be speculation (and often were before she did), while the RC mantra (“the Church© has/is...) here is laden with presumptions which rely upon wresting of Scripture, which she shows she forgets what the Lord said, which things we know from Scripture, not the Book of Mormon or what Rome channels her amorphous oral “Tradition” as saying.
>As regards 2 resurrections, that has real support for it<
Perhaps. Thanks.
>you make that “the day” to be merely declarative of the results of an earlier fire, that of the “particular judgment” which is asserted to take place at death<
Yes, correct. I “make that” because the church teaches that.
This basis for your “conclusions” as one bound to defend Rome, work to disallow objective searching of the Scriptures to contradict her, at least as you interpret her. And hinders further exchange.
>… but purgatory is the only place i see the CCC teaching a postmortem fire, and which is only for the imperfect believers<
You did not turn the page. Here it is:
Unnecessary pasting as in context I was referring to postmortem fire for believers, and in which purgatory ti see the CCC only having one class, that of imperfect believers, not a second class who go through the same fire unscathed.
>We can only agree that there is a postmortem test by fire which will burn up inferior works,<
That is not a small agreement, actually. You seem to agree with the kernel of the teaching on the purgatory, but you have questions about its timing and precise nature. Everyone does. The Church actually teaches little about the purgatory because there is little we know.
Again, agreement on one aspect does not reconcile the issues: period, purpose and possessions.
>Scripture explicitly confirms that Israel was uniquely the instrument of Divine written revelation and the stewards of it, (Rm. 3:2; 9:4) yet Scripture explicitly confirms that they were not assuredly infallible, nor was this needed in order for writings to be established as Divine, and for truth to be preserved.<
That is because the Jews rejected Christ and became the persecutors of the Church. To say that someone (Luther?) came and condemned the Church in the same way as Christ came and condemned the Jews is to stop believing in Christ as one Savior for all ages, Who also promised the victory to the Church, and destruction to her enemies.
To hold that a perpetual assuredly infallible magisterium on earth is is necessary to preserve truth is to deny the Scriptures and the power of God as to hold that God cannot and does not raise up believers from outside to correct the formal magisterium when it errors is to deny the Christian faith, as it was founded upon holy rebellion. And to presume that Rome cannot be corrected by such as Luther is make it the gates of Hell for multitudes, which is has become. And consistent with the type of loyalty to Rome based upon the basis for her claims, those who uphold her based upon such would have rejected John the Baptist and the Lord Himself who reproved those who presumed irreprovable supreme authority based upon formal transference of office, even though they actually had positional authority, but not assured infallibility.
>The Truth of God today is established as being the church of the living God today only insofar as it manifests conformity to the Scriptures in doctrine, love, holiness and in power, with the gospel of grace effecting manifest regeneration with its fruits.<
Of course. This is why I am Catholic, and you -- you must become.
And that is why i am no longer a Catholic, and i know both sides both doctrinally and experientially, having been a practicing Catholic for 6 years after becoming born again, and a CCD teacher and lector. And the more i engage Roman Catholics who must wrest and strain Scripture to find support due to being bound to defend Rome, even in things she has not infallibly defined and could change, the more it repels me as search the Scriptures to see if these things are so, with willingness to doctrinally go where the truth leads.
In addition, for what its worth, your position that one must become a Catholic before death in order to be saved is itself an interpretation of Rome, and a minority one at that in these times (though i believe it is more historical), and is in contradiction to official statements which generally recognize as Christians Protestants who have been baptized therein, “in which they are united with Christ,” and who “are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church,” and that “Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation.” (Lumen Gentium CCC 818. 19)
Nor do most evangelicals or even Reformed Christians exclude all Catholics from being saved, BUT if you have not humbled yourself as a lost sinner before God, as one damned for his sins and destitute of any merit whereby you may escape your just and eternal punishment in Hell fire, and placed all your faith in the Son sent by the Father to save you, believing on the sinless Lord Jesus Christ for the immediate forgiveness of all sins and the gift eternal life by His blood, resulting in manifest regeneration, with a faith that would then follow Him, than you never were a Christian. And there is much in Roman Catholicism that is contrary to the simplicity that is in Christ, and what she overall conveys is not the Scriptural gospel with its conviction that leads to effectual conversion.