Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
If you don’t think God is nice in the OT, look at the people themselves. Think about what kind of hell it was right before the flood. What is described is total anarchy, people doing whatever they thought was right (relativism to the extreme evil). The weaker living or dying at the whim of the slightly more powerful.
Whatever you think of God, look at the people He’s had to deal with. He could have just condemned all of us and not even had to go through with His plan to save those that would desire to be saved.
And the OT God is the same God in the NT. All unbelievers are still under the condemnation of the Law as described in the OT. That hasn’t changed.
But for the 25 words or less answer ... I'm not sure I can do one!
Christ comes into our lives and draws us into his life, by his Spirit into Himself. An early climax of this narrative is represented by "the sinner's prayer." But I don't think it starts there or is utterly fulfilled there.
Now I ask again:
You do know that we teach that those "in purgatory" are already saved, right? The 'works' done in purgation do not lead to salvation,they result from it.It is, I think, too simple to disparage "Faith + works = salvation." That's why I think James wrote the line we quote, and why Paul wrote this and the whole thing in Philippians. Faith + works in some sense ≠ salvation, but salvation sure has works in it.
So you do admit that you don’t believe Jesus sacrifice was good enough?
Absent from the body, present with the Lord. That’s Biblical. Paul speaks pretty clearly.
And Jesus paid that price in full for all time. We stand before Elohim (Judge) free and clear of all stain or guilt.
It doesn’t take thousands of temporal years to cleanse your soul.
On the contrary, we believe it was SO good that it enables us to contribute to healing the wounds we've inflicted on our selves and others. It was SO good that we can participate not only in being saved but in saving. It was far better than anyone would dare dream.
I always thought that line was about himself.
Dartuser,
Let me know if you have questions. I, or someone else on this thread should be able to answer.
I don't make too much of the time aspects of purgatory. It has been licitly speculated that it doesn't take any time at all.
I have a long-time family friend, a former priest of my now long ago church who I had the saddest talk with.
He has no certain hope he’d end up in heaven. He refuses to believe in the promises outlined by God in Scripture concerning the certainty of heaven if you believe in Christ as Lord and Savior. He believes it is presumptuous to say you ‘know’ you’re going there.
He also believes there was a real possibility he could do something wrong IN PURGATORY and lose heaven.
At the same time he believes non Christians could get to heaven (muslims in particular) because of their BELIEF in MARY.
This was not a novice priest. He has now been in the priesthood well over 35 years, he’s the senior priest wherever the parish he’s been posted as long as I’ve known him. He is NOT confused about what the Roman Catholic church teaches.
The concept of purgatory came from the time before Christ’s resurrection and before souls were taken directly to heaven. Christ descended into that place with the keys to release them and take them to heaven. That place is no longer needed because of Christ’s sacrifice.
Personally I believe the process of cleansing your soul (ie “glorification”) happens the instant you die.
Just like Justification does.
The problem is the Roman Catholic church doesn’t think it happens instantly, that people can say masses for those “still” in purgatory - making it a temporal issue. Or in the past selling indulgences to people to pay for the release of loved ones they claim are still there.
The Protestant fantasy of what the purgatory is, -- is not biblical. The purgatory as a place where the soul already saved by Christ's grace alone undergoes purification before it enters heaven is entirely biblical. See for example, the discourse of the purification of the saved by burning off their inferior works in 1 Cor. 3
[9] For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. [10] According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.[11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
I KNOW Christ took care of that for me. Belief in purgatory is a denial that Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient.
And as I said earlier, that I believe because it happens instantly, there’s no need for a place called purgatory.
You only need a doctrine that says purgatory exists if the cleansing of your soul does NOT happen instantly. If it happens instantly there’s no need for a separate place away from God because there’s no sin left in you if God cleanses you instantly. And there’s no need for purgatory either, because Roman Catholics say people aren’t there for punishment, so there’s no need for it to exist for that reason.
Faith and the grace of God? We are saved by the grace of God so we may not boast, that’s in there too, we can pick and choose pieces to fit what we like, but in the end... catholics are more comparable to pharisees and saducees than christians.
On what basis do you say he is not confused. He sure sounds dead wrong about at least three things.
You are trying to equate purgatory with the believer’s judgment - not the White Throne Judgment, but the individual believer’s judgment where there are rewards, and there are losses, for what was done in the body. That isn’t purgatory.
Those who argue against duration also argue against a "place". The usual word is state. Even for an instant something can be more or less intense.
Purgation, by the way, does not purge sin. It purges some of the effects of sin.
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