Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
The singular form of the word Elohim is used there. If you check you will find that even your Catholic church admits that Elohim refers to judges, angels, and kings.
Once again, you are not my authority. It's not God saying you are complete, it's the translation and interpretation of scripture that you choose that says you are complete. Rather self-serving, and ultimately problematic. What if it's wrong?
Our VILE bodies? I realize mine is a mud hut, but supposedly they are the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?
I need foot notes!
The word used is Elohim, the plural of El. In the beginning, the gods created the heavens and the earth.
PS, I don’t particularly care what you say that the Catholic Church says, the Hebrew word is translated “gods”
PS, I don’t particularly care what you say that the Catholic Church says, the Hebrew word is translated “gods”
They say penance is best in this life.
ping for later
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye ARE dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." Col. 3:1-3. As long as we live on this earth, in these earthly bodies, our outward man is warring with our inner man. Salvation does not take that warfare away. Unless we are taken the moment we are saved. It's not a matter of how others see us, it's a matter of how God sees us. And it's not a matter of just letting the outward man have his way once we are saved. We are a new creature. Bound in this earthly body of vileness, yet spiritually seated with Christ. The outward man has already lost the war. But it doesn't keep him from trying to win battles.
"For I know that in me (that is, IN MY FLESH) dwelleth no good thing: for to WILL is present with me: but HOW to perform that which is good I find not...For I delight in the law of God after the INWARD MAN: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which in in my members...Oh wretched man that I am: who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin...Ther is therefor NOW no condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST JESUS, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS hath made me FREE from the law of sin and death." Romans Chapters 7,8.
And round it goes, outward man warring against the inward man while we live on this earth. But like I said, the war is over, according to the law of the Spirit of Life IN CHRST. But that does not keep the outward man from waging battles daily. As we all know.
But the verb is singular, suggesting an “honorific”or “reverental” plural noun. Like the royal we or saying “vous” instead of ‘tu’ in French.
"For our conversation is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Philippians 3:20,21.
That is why we are told to put no confidence in the outward man. It is led by the 5 senses. It is the way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death and destruction. The outward man perishes, but the inward man is renewed day by day.
My question to you is What if it's NOT wrong?..
“If we have recourse to the use of the word Elohim in the study of its meaning, we find that in its proper sense it denotes either the true God or false gods, and metaphorically it is applied to judges, angels, and kings; and even accompanies other nouns, giving them a superlative meaning.”
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05393a.htm
Glad to be of service helping you understand what your church teaches. It looks like when scripture calls the Israelite judges Elohim it’s a metaphor. Go figure.
Hmmm. I did not know the verb was singular.
I see no use and great temptation in conversing with those who think they are fighting a fight and that that justifies resorting to insult when reason fails.
If they turn again and show themselves to be concerned about more about the victory of the truth than of themselves — if they show that they can tell the two apart, then conversation can be useful to both.
C'mon Mad Dawg...When the English speaking world has a definition for 'is' and then you tell us the Catholic religion has a different definition for the English word 'is', something's rotten in Denmark, or Bismark, or Haiti...
You converse in our language and then when we finally pin you down you claim what you are saying has a different meaning in the Catholic language...
That's not a failure of my reasoning...
How we know Mad Dawg is deranged:
My first responses are, “Shut up! I AM complete. So THERE!
And to go around the house singing, “How long do I have to wait? Can I be finished now, or must I hesitate?” to the tune of the “Hesitation Blues”
I REALLY need a vacation.
So, is it fair to say that there’s a sense of Completion— but not yet.
My analogy for the eschaton is that we are like freedom fighters in eastern France after D-Day. The War is over. We know it. Hitler knows it. But Eisenhower’s establishing a beach-head in France means “his wrath is great because he knows his days are short.”
And there may even be a Battle of the Bulge in our future. (Remarks about my waistline are NOT appropriate here.) But the good guys have won.
So, of course, we would jam purgation into the “over,but not yet” stack. It’s over, but there’s still something left to do.
There are two corruptions of discourse here.
The most grievous is the resort to insult, slur, and ignorant and unjustified accusation.
The second is lousy reasoning in service not of the truth but of conquest. Purgatory and purgation are our words. We have an elaborate theological discourse, whose native language is not English.
Our enemies, for such they are — as their easy transition to insult shows, take our words and bandy them about, not troubling to find out what we mean by them. They grow accustomed to their misuse of the terms of our theology and when we maintain their original use they accuse US of changing the meaning of words.
This is obviously bogus.
Yes, there IS something left to do...
"For our conversation is in heaven: from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." Philippians 3:20,21.
Does this happen over time, in purgatory, until we are acceptable to enter heaven?
"Behold, I shew you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL BE CHANGED, IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be CHANGED." 1 Cor. 15:51,52. It's not a process. It happens in the twinkling of an eye.
Indeed it is tiresome...
The Greek word translated “work out” means “to perform, accomplish, achieve, or complete.” ...it does not mean to work to be saved...it does not say work to be saved..it says work out YOUR SALVATION ..an accomplished fact
Cult..false God, false christ, false salvation...
That’s the most telling counter argument yet. Thanks.
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