Posted on 10/22/2011 1:21:35 PM PDT by NYer
Catholics get a bad rap for thinking we somehow “merit” or “earn” our own sanctification (and salvation) through “works” that we do. But that’s a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Our sanctification (our being made holy) happens only by the Grace of God. But it does require a response on our part. We must cooperate with it. This submission to and cooperation with God’s Grace, Catholics call a “work” and it takes various forms.
Some identify this response to God’s grace as a kind of “saving” or “justifying” faith (a faith that produces or is accompanied by works of conversion, hope and charity) as opposed to a “work” – something we do. Such a position is reconcilable with Catholic teaching once we understand each side’s terminology. On the other hand, I think it’s confusing to refer to this cooperation with and submission to God’s Grace as simply “faith alone” – which is one reason Catholics don’t refer to it that way (and probably one reason the Bible says we are “not” saved by “faith alone” – James 2:24).
Anyway, here Fr. Barron speaks a little bit about some of these sanctifying practices of the Church and what we mean by “Purgatory” (an extension of that sanctification) in the super-natural sense.
What the Church means by purgatory? - Watch You Tube Video
This exclusive preview clip was from CATHOLICISM, Episode X: “WORLD WITHOUT END: THE LAST THINGS”.
Explore the Church’s conviction that life here and now is preparation for an extraordinary world that is yet to come – a supernatural destiny. Father Barron presents the Catholic vision of death, judgment, heaven, hell and purgatory as he journeys to Florence, Ireland and Rome.
The vision of the Church sees beyond this world and invites us to consider a world without end. Father Barron shows how this vision is supported by the mystery and truth of the Resurrection of Jesus.
View exclusive preview clips from all episodes of the CATHOLICISM series coming out in Fall 2011.
And that is the who, while the how is in Jn. 8:31,32.
What we say, or the mormons say, etc. doesn’t matter. The truth matters.
John 20:30-31 does not say so. It says that the scripture is sufficient to produce faith in some ("may believe"), and that among those who do believe, some "may have life".
He finds, in short, heaven.
Where does it say *some*???
Or did you just add that on your own?
And there's nothing implied in the use of *may* other than that this was written so that people are capable of, have the opportunity to, believe; to possess eternal life
Greek is echo: "to have, hold"
Definition: I have, hold, possess.
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Truth is that all religions who have claimed extra Biblical “revelation” through prophets or shamans or vicars are cults and not scriptural.
The word for "believing" (pisteuō) occurs 248 times as "believe, believeth, believing, etc., and only a few times (10*) is it prefaced by "might, which is not in the Greek, and does not infer or establish any insufficiency on Scripture, any more than it does of Christ Himself.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17)
While there is more information, (2Cpor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) Scripture is the assured word of God, being the only transcendent material class of revelation that is assuredly perpetually infallible as God-breathed, while eons-old oral tradition is unverifiable and supremely subject to undetectable corruption, and the assurance of an autocratic assertedly infallible magisterium of Rome will not make it the assured Word of God.
"All the truth we need" however, is a qualified statement, that of the spiritual realm, not changing spark plugs, and refers to the pure wholly inspired Word of God, and which also materially provides for, sanctions, the "preaching of the word" out of Scripture which all in the church (which Scripture also provides) is called to do to some degree, (Acts 8:4) but is not assuredly infallible as that which is Scripture is, (2Tim. 3:16) and by which all else is judged, including the medium through which Scripture comes, which sometimes do not even understand what they just wrote. (1Pt. 1:11; cf. 2Pt. 1:20,21)
Thus noble souls examined the veracity of apostolic preaching by it, and out of which Paul reasoned in persuading souls, (Acts 17:2,11 28:23) as well as the supernatural attestation Scripture affirms in supplemental testimony. (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:3,4) By both truth and authority is Scripturally established, overcoming the competition which God allows. (Ex. 7:11,22; 8:7,18)
*Mat. 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Joh. 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh. 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
Joh. 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh. 19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
Joh. 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Rom. 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Ti. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Pe. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Not in front of an idol of Mary.
The commonality is that they all effectively claim sola ecclesia, that they are the supreme assuredly infallible interpreters of Scripture as well as their additional “revelation,” and require implicit assent of faith in them, rather than depending on the manifestation of the truth, the infallible Scriptures being supreme, to persuade men.
That was the most ridiculous spin on a verse of scripture I have seen in a while.
Where’d all the Catholic Bible literalists go?
Catholics are only part time. They can take off most any time it doesn’t work for them.
I now know without a doubt where clinton got his “depends on what the meaning of “is” is...
The Scripture speaks of two fires: the annihilating fire of eternal damnation and the cleansing fire of the Purgatory. So please, do not confuse the two: they are two distinct images of fire because the former is eternal punishment, and the latter leaves the man going though it saved.
Those who are saved are with the Lord soon, if not immediately after their death:
[26] For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment: [28] So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation. (Hebrews 9)this day thou shalt be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43)
we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us (Hebrews 12:1)
So therefore the cleansing, if needed must also occur at the particular judgment, i.e. right after death.
Regarding Hebrews 9, the verse about the judgment, verse 27 is wedged between the verse referring to the sacrifice of the Cross and the verse referring to the redemption of the sins; it is not then, referring to the time of the second coming when those “without sin” are already described as such.
The only fire Scripture reveals as commencing at death is not purgative, but punitive
A dozen posts down the road and you forgot our topic, 1 Cor 3., where one going through fire is saved rather than punished.
That is not RC purgatory, as again, the works being lost are not character defects (though they reflect that) which enable them to enter glory, but are works which should have endured, as those of them who are rewarded did, while those who lost works are not saved because they lost works, but despite this loss. In other words, the fire test is for rewards, and is not entrance into Heaven, and thus the loss of works results in loss of rewards, not the gaining of Heaven because they lost them.
The point remains, however verbosely you obfuscate it, that those with “stubble” enter heaven after the stubble burns off. That is cleansing, and the essential function of the “RC” purgatory.
the only transcendent material class of revelation which is assuredly perpetually infallible is Scripture
But the Scripture does not say so.
What is a viscous circle is that of Rome, in which according to her interpretation (or decree) only her interpretation (or decree) is correct in any conflict.
That is because the Scripture is but a reflection of the knowledge in the Church, which pre-existed it.
Rome's claim to supremacy is that of self-proclamation
Well, yes. You either believe the events in the Gospels or you don’t. That’s “self-proclamation”: you were not there. Christianity requires faith. A part of that faith is that the mission of the Church set forth in Matthew 16:18-19 succeeded. Evidently you believe it failed. As I like to repeat, Protestantism is entryway to complete apostasy.
work to disallow objective searching of the Scriptures
If you don’t think that I am engaged in “objective searching of the Scriptures” with you, why after a dozen posts you could not show scripturally and convincingly that I am wrong, while I patently addressed your every point from scripture?
not a second class who go through the same fire unscathed
Since they go unscathed, they are not in purgatory for any appreciable time. They go through a test, but not though the cleansing. Purgatory is cleansing.
to deny the Scriptures and the power of God as to hold that God cannot and does not raise up believers from outside to correct the formal magisterium
God certainly can raise believers from even the most infertile ground. The problem with Protestantism is not that it poses questions to the Magisterium, but that it is not interested in the answers.
why i am no longer a Catholic
I have a feeling you will come back. You have a sincere and searching mind and with all your bluster you invariably come to the Catholic understanding of the Scripture, deviant but in detail. There is no other place for you to end up but in the Church.
your position that one must become a Catholic before death in order to be saved
That is inaccurate because it implies salvation by Catholic faith alone, which would itself be an understanding infected with Protestantism. My position is that (1) all who are saved upon death are saved because of an internal conversion, which may be at the hour of death rather than formal and (2) that those Catholics who choose Protestantism choose death for themselves. That is the historical meaning of “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” and it has not changed. The important part is to strive for holiness as we are saved primarily by our works of faith, and not by formal beliefs.
To say "you may believe" implies the possibility that you may not believe. So, some believe, others don't.
"ταυτα δε γεγραπται ινα πιστευσητε" You are correct: it simply says "this however is-written so-that you-believe" (I group English words together so they match the Greek). Still, it is talking about belief rather than proof, suggesting that not all believe.
"All the truth we need" however, is a qualified statement
It is simply an inaccurate statement. Atheists read the Gospel of John and don't believe. Then, an atheist goes through some crisis and believes. The gospel is filled with scenes where faith came to the unlikeliest of persons, and quite typically, to those least familiar with the scripture.
My point was however, not that John 20:30f "infers or establishes any insufficiency on Scripture", but that it merely does not teach its absolute sufficiency.
Where Christ is, Mary is also. You think you love, Christ, — try at least not to insult his mother.
The concept of purgatory is nonsense.
Making statues of Mary IS insulting Mary.
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