The last time I saw Swaggart on TV, this album was hot stuff.
Posted on 10/05/2011 8:26:50 AM PDT by Colofornian
I pose this, not as a trick question, but sincerely. To me, a non-Mormon, there are a couple of things that just don’t add up. The one is that Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”
The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship?
Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus? The brief article on worship in the manual, True to the Faith, at the very least, causes one to ask that question. It quotes Moses 1:15: “Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.” In the next paragraph it specifically mentions that prayer is one way to worship the Father. A little bit later it says: “As you reverently partake of the sacrament and attend the temple, you remember and worship your Heavenly Father and express your gratitude for His Son, Jesus Christ.” Again, as a non-Mormon, I find that distinction between Heavenly Father and Jesus quite striking.
The bottom line is that D&C 20:19 states that only one being is to be worshipped. In light of that, I think it is only fair to ask, whom do Mormons worship?
90% of the portrayals here of what the Saints believe is either an outright falsehood or a deliberate distortion.
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No it isn’t. On the other hand, 90% of what the LDS tell non-LDS what they believe is redefined, parts omitted or deliberate distortion. Some are even outright falshoods.
I’ve been LDS, and knew LDS theology better than most LDS. What MHG says is accurate.
We believe nearly everything you just posted.
If people are going to begin to understand the Mormon "maze" of its beliefs about origins, you need to read part of the book, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. This is a Mormon book compiled by one of its to-be "prophets," Joseph Fielding Smith, in 1938. I have a copy and here are some key quotes relating to Fishtank and 47Samurai's conversation:
* "If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 350)
(No wonder Mormons are so cocky)
* "There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 353)
(So much for the doctrine of God/Jesus as "Creator" -- Mormons believe you and I are "co-equal with our Father in heaven"...no wonder such Mormon arrogance is so prominent!)
* "...I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all...Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 354)
Wow! Just wow! Joseph Smith telling the world that "God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all" -- and all because Smith thought he knew "more than all the world put together." Yeah! What a "humble" uneducated country bumpkin that the Mormons like Ripliancum and 47Samurai try to portray Smith to be!!!
So tell us, Joseph Smith, how did you determine these things. They seem to come from the tip of your tongue. "This is good doctrine. It tastes good...I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them..." (Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 355)
So are you elevating islam to explain mormonISM?
I’ll let others explain why you are misguided here about the rest of your argument, I do want to say thanks for at least tying to explain your position, so many lds just call people names and claim persecution.
I have never understood that argument when 99% of what is quoted is directly from lds sources and references. The rest are personal experiences.
Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer and were they both created?
It was my understanding that the LDS believes in a created Jesus.
Jesus is Eternal, Unchanging, He has been the Infinite Uncreated forever.
Thank you so much for your clarifications.
To samurai: Is Colofornian accurate here? I had forgotten that you might interpret the word “create” to mean “organize”, and not in these sense of calling all of the universe out of nothing.
Do you believe in an eternal universe, then?
At least 47Samurai, you are a more forthright Mormon. Most Mormons don't want to admit they are polytheists. It's actually refreshing to encounter a Mormon who concedes they are.
Mormons like to make much of the 4th century councils re: the Trinity -- coming several hundred years after the New Testament.
What they don't know is how late in his life Smith feasted upon polytheism.
We really don't find Smith focusing on gods plural until D&C 120:32 (July, 1838) -- less than six years before he died. Five years to the month, he revisited the plurality of gods again in D&C 132:18-20. But this "revelation" was written only to his wife, Emma, to get her to capitulate to accept polygamy in their household. The doctrine of polygamy never went public until 1852.
Therefore, there really wasn't any "traction" for the Mormon teaching of gods plural. Not until June 1844...King Follett sermon times in the same month he died.
Right before his death, Smith preached east of the Nauvoo Temple in a meeting in the grove (June 16, 1844). He makes it clear then that he had failed to lay it clear to his followers his embracement of polygamy -- until that day!
"Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry--'The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen.' It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 369-370)
From there he goes on to talk about the plurality of gods.
The comment in bold shows quite plainly how elusive Smith had been up until then in allowing his polytheism to be prominently taught. Some of those closest to him heard him say it; and between polytheism and polygamy, some of them apostatized. They exposed him; and Smith knew he couldn't duck the matter any longer.
So here he also began teaching that Mormons were to learn how to become gods themselves (June 1844 was a first in that topical department). In fact, it was such a first, that Mormons still to this very day have no canonized "revelations" from their gods that they can become gods. Not in the Book of Mormon. Not in the D&C. Not in the Pearl of Great Price. All they can do is try to hum along on that via passages like Ps. 82 and the word "heirs" in the New Testament.
No wonder the Lone God of the heavens removed His protection of Smith the very month he taught this to the Mormons! (I hear He's not a very big fan of idolatry!)
Good that you are so open...to state that you really don't follow the Bible.
Of course Christians that are reading their Bibles, know this.
Not surprising you typed in a zinger..."Saint". When will you be a god?
How many wife's will you have?
Give examples of just 50%...
So we can know what you are referring to. Debate it! Don't just accuse.
The last time I saw Swaggart on TV, this album was hot stuff.
Clever.
There are many many "evangeicals" who are embracing polytheism. They are all sadly deluded and deluding.
Milk before meat?
By "not debating", you mean you post paragraph after paragraph of your version and either expect no rebuttal or will not answer a rebuttal.
When you have spoken, everything has been said?
I've yet to see a single one since I've been at F.R.
PM
Do you believe in an eternal universe, then?
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Be careful with this. To most LDS ‘eternal’ does not really mean eternal.
As an LDS, I would have responded with a ‘yes’ but known that to the LDS ‘eternal’ is just a ‘really long time’ which SEEMS like an eternity to us because we are so finite.
They would say God is Eternal without issue, because TO US they are ‘eternal’ but they are not eternal as Christians define it - without beginning or end. This is another issue of LDS redefining words and also how they can reconcile the Bible verses (and BOM - Moroni 8:18) of God being Eternal along with the LDS teaching that God was once a man who progressed to Godhood and is still progressing, and Jesus being a created being.
Hope this helps.
Actually, there have been what the momronism apologists believe to be logical responses to counter the exposure of mormonism heresies. I would cite Delphi User as one who spend billions and billions of bytes posting ‘stuff’ he honestly believed proved the LDS inc positions. Sadly, he was unable to assimilate rebuttal of his flawed lines of reasoning. And that is quite typical of cult members and the blindness which coems with falling into/falling for heretical teaching. There is a mormon god and a mormon jesus, they’re just not the Christian God and Jesus. And until The Holy Spirit pricks the heart of one fallen into a blasphemous cult, the blindness remains and grows thicker the deeper immersed into the cult the adherents become.
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