Posted on 10/05/2011 8:26:50 AM PDT by Colofornian
I pose this, not as a trick question, but sincerely. To me, a non-Mormon, there are a couple of things that just don’t add up. The one is that Mormonism teaches that the Father and Son are separate Beings. It interprets their oneness that the Bible talks about as a unity of purpose or something similar, but never as a unity of being. But what trips me up is a LDS Scripture like D&C 20:19. “And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being that they should worship.”
The things that strikes me are the singulars (only God. . .only being). Who is the only being that this verse refers to? Who is the only being that should be worshipped? Does this refer to Heavenly Father or Jesus? It seems pretty clear to me that this scripture states that only one God is to be worshipped and, according to Mormonism, “one God” and “one being” can’t refer both to Heavenly Father and Jesus. Therefore my question: whom do Mormons worship?
Or more pointedly, would it be accurate to say that Mormonism does not teach worship of Jesus? The brief article on worship in the manual, True to the Faith, at the very least, causes one to ask that question. It quotes Moses 1:15: “Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve.” In the next paragraph it specifically mentions that prayer is one way to worship the Father. A little bit later it says: “As you reverently partake of the sacrament and attend the temple, you remember and worship your Heavenly Father and express your gratitude for His Son, Jesus Christ.” Again, as a non-Mormon, I find that distinction between Heavenly Father and Jesus quite striking.
The bottom line is that D&C 20:19 states that only one being is to be worshipped. In light of that, I think it is only fair to ask, whom do Mormons worship?
John 17:3
That they might know thee the only true God.....
Who said that, again?
.... and what follows the ellipses?
Fourth Century? But wasn’t that well into the ‘fallen into apostasy’ that your prophet claimed occurred with the death of the last Apostle? And this Father god that Mormonism claims, was he once a man and had to earn the attributes of godhood before siring the spirit children, the LDS inc jesus and his spirit brother Satan in the ‘pre-existence’? Are you sure this father god your worship is The God? Your own Journal of Discourses states that a council of ‘gods’ appointed this father god you worship to be the god of the Earth and humankind, and that the mormonism jesus had to also earn the attributes of godhood to become a part of the troika of gods for Earth and humankind. Are you sure you worship the same God found identified in The Bible?
The post you snipped about the ancient Nephites praying to Jesus is incomplete without the rest of the passage. But I suspect you knew that. Here's verses 19-23 that you snipped out.
3rd Nephi 18:
19 And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst of them, and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said:
20 Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world.
21 Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.
22 Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them.
23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.
http://lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/19?lang=eng
Carry on. I won't debate here, but please don't snip the relevant verses.
Further, in the chapter right before this, Jesus specifically commands them to pray to the Father, in his name. To try to say the BoM teaches otherwise is less than forthright.
3 Nephi 18:19-21
19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name;
20 And whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that ye shall receive, behold it shall be given unto you.
21 Pray in your families unto the Father, always in my name, that your wives and your children may be blessed.
That is all. Have a good day.
it it true that 3 lefts make a right but 2 wrongs..not so much
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us
Jesus Was and Is the Word and Was and Is God.
So the book of John is mistaken that Jesus was the Word and that the Word Was God ?
Jesus, who said “I and the Father are one.” and “Before Abraham was born, I AM.”
"FWIW" in this specific case means "not much"...and actually, I'm being quite generous.
What? You never got around to reading the book of Hebrews? Here, allow me to quote it for you:
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb. 1:6)
(I guess if you were an angel and had disobeyed this, that would have placed you in the demon camp, now wouldn't have it? Is that the camp you subscribe to? In fact, let's cut to the heart here & not talk abstractly...it sounds as if you yourself don't worship Jesus...is that true?)
Certainly when God brought his firstborn into the world, the wisemen complied in worshiping Jesus (see Matthew 2:8,11) [You're not going to start yelling diatribes @ wisemen scenes & nativities each Christmas, are you, for worshiping Jesus?]
Also, we learn from the Gospels about worshiping Jesus by looking @ Jesus' reaction. Did He rebuke those who worshiped Him?
38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. (John 9:38) (the following verses to that one also show the "blindness" that Jesus wished to heal people of wasn't simply physical -- but spiritual -- to correctly see the Lord as He is, and to respond in worship like this blind man did.
What about Mary Magdalene and the other woman who worshiped the resurrected Jesus? 8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. (Matt. 28:8-9)
Did Jesus tell either of them to rise to their feet -- to "don't do it" -- like an angel did elsewhere in the NT?
Or what about the disciples?
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20)
Note there, too, the reaction of Jesus. No rebuke was given. No warning issued.
And frankly, in the Jewish culture, even to say to a Being, "My Lord and my God!" was in and of itself a great act of honor, worship, and glorification!
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)
Sadly, the LDS church is honoring a very small jesus.
See my post #10.
The true Jesus is the CREATOR of the whole universe.
The true Jesus existed BEFORE anything else.
Everything was CREATED BY HIM.
The true Jesus holds everything together.
The true Jesus is BEYOND our experience and comprehension, BUT He took on human form for us.
He was NOT a mere human who then became a little bit better than He was before.
From Colossians (KJV).
“For by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things,
and by him all things consist.””
Please see post number 14 above.
Typically, I've seen Mormons unable to defend their beliefs on this forum. I applaud you for at least attempting to make a point. The inability or unwillingness of Mormons to articulate logical responses to critiques of their belief system strongly suggests there simply aren't legitimate counter positions.
I’m not interested in debating this. I was just pointing out that not all people who believe in Jesus believe that he was God. Many understand him to be the son of God, a separate and distinct soul, with free will to choose.
Believe whatever helps you sleep at night.
(You mean 3 Nephi 19, not 18, don't you? Or is that "arguing" or "debating" with you? Which is somehow disagreeable to you? So if you miscite the wrong chapter from the Book of Mormon, what you are telling all of us is that even on such a simple matter, we can't correct you? Wow, Rip! Just wow! Don't overwhelm us with your humility!)
Everybody snippets, Rip...few posters even respond to EVERYTHING another poster says...some part of what they say catches their eye, and they respond. You don't cite the entire Bible each time you quote it, do you? That means, you, too, segment/parcel it out.
So allow me to focus on the ONLY part of the verse which seems to uphold your point...v. 22 at the end: ...they pray unto me because I am with them. [Snip, snip]
Now for you to be consistent with this point, then you would have to also hold to the position that Jesus is no longer "with" us. Do you hold to this position?
If so, then you would make Jesus out to be a false prophet. For Jesus absolutely promised His disciples that: "and, lo, I am with you ALWAYS, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20)
So much for you "Amening" with Jesus' real presence with us unto the end of the world, eh, Rip?
I won't debate here, but please don't snip the relevant verses.
(No need to "debate" Rip; because based on the above, your point doesn't carry much weight)
Translation: "I can't Biblically support what I've tried to ignorantly export."
(Yeah, I know. We get it. You either don't worship Jesus; or never have, and now that I've called you on both what you tried to export as "Bible knowledge" as well as challenge you to stop discussing "worshiping Jesus" in the abstract, you say, "let's move along now.")
“we recognize them as individual beings”
Clearly polytheism.
Mormons worship three gods... plus, of course, Heavenly Mother, the fourth mormon earth god. So four mormon earth gods are acknowledged as “individual beings” and worshipped.
The other few billion mormon gods are not worshipped.
They will CLAIM they worship Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, however that isn’t true.
In reality they worship ‘the LDS Church’ and Joseph Smith. Do they pray to Joseph? Not at all, but they revere him in a way that is worship. Same with the LDS church, ‘the Church’ always comes first, Jesus is always just a footnote, you can see this in conference talks, in their testimonies, in the admonitions to never do anything to make ‘the church’ look bad, the temple rituals - the law of consecration is about giving to “THE CHURCH”.
Of course the LDS will deny it, I would have too when I was LDS, it was only after I became a Christians and started worshiping God, Jesus, and the Spirit, did I see that when I was LDS it was all about “The Church” and Joe Smith, not God or Christ at all.
And wouldn't he be the real "God" on the block? (Or would it be GtF2 father, GtF3...GtF4?)
It may surprise you to find out that Muslims consider all Christians to be polytheists for the same reason,i.e; that Christians have elevated Jesus to the position of God.
... Sorry, Christians did not “elevate Jesus to the position of God.”
... Sorry, Muslims are wrong again.
“The God of the Bible is clearly polytheistic.”
... Heresy. He is not polytheistic.
“Witness the baptism of Jesus... You had Jesus standing in the water, The voice of the Father coming down from the heavens declaring Him to be His Son, and the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove. As well as countless examples of Jesus praying to His Father and referencing the Holy Spirit.”
... This does not make God polytheistic. It makes you a heretic.
“The Mormon understanding of the personalities of the Godhead were quite commonly understood by all Christians until the 4th century, when the Catholic definition of the Trinity took over.”
... Sorry, the great councils codified what was already believed and taught by the Church. They did this because heresies like mormonism (arianism) were attacking the Church.
“Indeed, even today, many evangelical Christians, based on their own studies of the Bible have come around to this point of view .... (see Jimmy Swaggart for an example)”
... You will find heresy in many places. That never makes it true.
Both muslims and mormons are wrong on this very point - because of deliberate misrepresntation of the Trinitarian doctrine plus what the bible actually states.
Witness the baptism of Jesus...
Which does not require polytheism to answer 47.
As well as countless examples of Jesus praying to His Father and referencing the Holy Spirit.
Again, taken to the exclusion of the witness of the rest of the bible - the nature of the Incarnation.
The Mormon understanding of the personalities of the Godhead were quite commonly understood by all Christians until the 4th century, when the Catholic definition of the Trinity took over.
You really haven't done any research past mormon sources have you. The doctrine of the Trinity (by name) occurs as early as the second century in ANF writings. BTW, Athenagoras in AD 177 for example (Plea for the Christians) defined the Trinity in almost the exact same words as Nicea. Same with Theophilus of Antioch in AD 168.
See, mormon 'understanding' of the Godhead is further flawed because they view it through the eyes of smith - and not what the bible ACTUALLY says. Where mormons reference it (when they do) -
Col 2:9 KJV - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The greek for "Godhead" is 'theotēs' which is defined as the state of being God (not 'a' god). This is further reinforced by the use of "fulness" (plērōma) which results in the understanding that everything God was present in Jesus - this is not a committee on Kolob 47, but biblical evidence of the understanding of the Trinity at the apostolic level.
Indeed, even today, many evangelical Christians, based on their own studies of the Bible have come around to this point of view .... (see Jimmy Swaggart for an example)
Citations please that evangelicals are becoming polytheistic.
"I always like to use the analogy of Jim Caviezel [In Mel Gibson's 'The Passion of The Christ']. Like the Mormon Jesus, he dressed the part, spoke the same words (in the original language, no less), and was referred to as Jesus Christ within a specific context, but it makes all the difference in the world whether one worships and depends upon him for their salvation or the genuine article."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.