Thanks. The idea that speaking with or prayers to one who has died was called "necromancy" and entailed using one who had a "familiar spirit", in other words, a witch or a medium. God strictly forbid it and it was the primary reason King Saul was removed from his reign and died. Repeatedly in Scripture, the Jews were commanded to NOT try to contact the dead under penalty of death. If you remember, King Saul went to the Witch of Endor to conjure up the prophet Samuel, knowing full well it was gravely sinful. Why he thought God wouldn't know about it, mystifies me, but don't we all sometimes think God is off busy somewhere else. I read many places where in both the Old and New Testament prayers are either to God or asked of someone alive still. Nowhere are we EVER told to pray for the dead.
Where the idea even came about is interesting. From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm:
Catholic teaching regarding prayers for the dead is bound up inseparably with the doctrine of purgatory and the more general doctrine of the communion of the saints, which is an article of the Apostle's Creed.
The doctrine was developed many centuries after the Apostles had all died. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the Catholic Church has no clear or explicit Scriptures on which to base the doctrine other than a vague reference from the Apocryphal book of II Maccabees. I do not believe that there is a purgatory simply because the Bible is so clear about our "standing" in Christ that means all our sins have been paid in full. Christ IS our place of purgation because he has made us white as snow by his shed blood. When we die, we go to be with the Lord because we have been made righteous through him. So just as the dogma of purgatory is not a Scriptural one, the doctrine tied to this - prayers to and/or for the dead - has no Scriptural one either.
I know that your Church has developed the doctrine of prayers to/for the dead from several things such as a few passages from Scripture that may have some allusion to it, ancient liturgies, catacomb writings and ECF writings. For me, I do not consider those evidence enough to draw the conclusion since none of those things ARE clearly stated in Scripture.
I just noticed that it is after 3 a.m., and I need to go to bed. We can discuss more if you want tomorrow. If you're still up, have a peaceful sleep. My first paragraph reminded me of a joke:
Did you hear about the midget witch that escaped from jail?
The headline read, Small Medium at Large :o)
Thanks bb. That is the discussion, summarized as I recall.
Throughout my life, I have had experiences after my parents died and more recently after my husband’s death that convinced me that they were happy, in heaven and that they were close to Christ and His angels and saints.
I do not consider it “contacting the dead” or using a “familiar spirit” when I talk to my parents or my husband. Protestants can call it whatever they wish, it won’t bother me a bit. For what it’s worth, I did not experience any of them as in purgatory, either.
For what it’s worth, I’ve never sought any information from any of them, just enjoyed the perception of their joy and peace. I have no idea if they hear me or not, when I talk to them, but I’m certain I’m not the only FReeper who has talked to a loved one who has died. I’m even told that it is a normal part of the grieving process.
The doctrine of purgatory is a familiar one to me, and I agree, let’s leave it for another time.
3:00 am is a normal time of prayers for me, so I bid you a restful night.
However, the idea of the communion of the saints hinges on the question of the power of the Spirit to establish koinonia versus the power of death to divide.
We hold the Spirit prevails. Love is stronger than death.
However, the idea of the communion of the saints hinges on the question of the power of the Spirit to establish koinonia versus the power of death to divide.
We hold the Spirit prevails. Love is stronger than death.