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To: Jvette
Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man and how Lazarus is carried by angels to the bosom of Abraham when he died.

*blink*,*blink* : |

Are you assuming this is the physical bosom of Abraham? The Bosom of Abraham is a place, otherwise known as Paradise. It is not heaven, for it is below us. It is Sheol.

Is the story of Abraham just a ghost story?

WHAT story of Abraham?

It may do you well to understand the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man by reading the surrounding context, and understanding WHO would be clothed in fine linen of purple.

Moses is with Jesus at the Transfiguration. [...] Was Moses a vision conjured up Jesus?

Perhaps, but I don't think so. But likewise, we don't KNOW the mechanics of what the Disciples testified to wrt the transfiguration. There may well be a time element involved - When seeing something of heaven, one has to remember it is outside of the constrictions of time - I am not saying this is the case, but one speculation is exactly as good as the next...

And what happened to all those who rose from their graves at the time of the crucifixion?

These were the first fruits - the emptying out of Paradise - Those who came before the Blood who were made justified. They were the true, real 'waive offering' before the Father which Yeshua performed... The early harvest. These were all translated to heaven early on Sunday morning (after Yeshua met Mary Magdalene at the tomb, but before His appearance on the road to Emmaus). A reasonable understanding of the Holy Days of YHWH and the duties of the High Priest will resolve these questions completely.

What we read in Scripture is not just a telling or retelling of stories, they are lessons to be learned, in them we learn of the glory of God, the history of His relationship to His Children and how He has redeemed us with His own Son. Scripture is written so that we can grasp these things and believe.

TRUE. But that does not give us license to make up what they mean out of whole cloth, or we will wind up believing something other than the Gospel and the Kingdom. What we KNOW of Abraham is that he died and was buried. We might assume he was later tranfigured and translated (and no doubt he was, as part of the emptying out of Paradise at the resurrection). But we are not allowed to just pull a rabbit out of our hat and create doctrine (not to mention dogma) that feeeeels good, but denies the plain text of the Scriptures which came before. To say that Abraham was transfigured immediately may well have happened - But that is not what the Bible explicitly says. To derive some implication beyond what the Bible actually says is a very dangerous thing.

They knew Scriptures backwards and forwards and yet could not see Jesus as the Christ even when He stood right before them. They were hard of heart and tied to their book and could not see past what they thought the Messiah was and would do. Scripture gives testimony of Jesus, but it did not contain all that there was to know of Him and because it didn’t they did not know Him.

I would submit that their imperfect knowledge came with their pious hubris, and their insistence upon their traditions. One might have a better grasp of this if one were to study the Talmud (the Jewish oral law) to see all the FALSE expectations about Messiah which were treated as equal to YHWH's word.

God will reveal what He will reveal, when He will reveal it.

AMEN to that! But making things up that clearly confound the Scriptures will blind the eyes when those revelations come - Even as many already have.

2,997 posted on 09/12/2011 6:40:35 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; Jvette
"As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec." Heb. 5:6.

Christ is an eternal priest. If He is priest FOREVER, there can be NO priestly succession. As long as man has access to God, there can be no need of vicars of Christ, among men.

That would seem to annihilate the claims of the RCC and their priestly succession.

3,000 posted on 09/12/2011 6:57:41 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: roamer_1

We don’t agree that it confounds Scripture to say that Mary has been taken to heaven by Jesus. Jesus says He would give life to whom He chooses. The doctrine is not made up of whole cloth, but is a formal declaration by the Church of a belief that has been a part of the community of believers since nearly the very beginning.

The veneration of Mary began very early in the Church. The catacombs in Rome have depictions of her. There is even one of her being assumed into heaven. She is called the mother of the church and there is a fresco in those catacombs that shows her between Peter and Paul.

To say that the Church has “made up” the Marian doctrines out of whole cloth is a false accusation. As early as the second century, writers and theologians have considered Mary and her role in salvation, in the Church and in the hearts of believers.

To believe that Jesus, who is God, prepared her for Himself and then assumed her into heaven at the end of her life to be with Him does not conflict with Scripture. The Scriptures clearly shows that others are in heaven, body and soul so it is not without precedent.

To believe these things about Mary does not lead us to believe a different Gospel, it reinforces the Gospel we already believe. That Jesus is Lord, Son of the Living God and by His grace we are saved and will have eternal life with Him. To think that Jesus honored His mother is in perfect keeping with Scripture, both the plain text and the spirit.


3,062 posted on 09/13/2011 8:02:46 AM PDT by Jvette
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