Replies

Your comment on Pub 78 is funny and demonstrates your lack of knowledge in this area.

That phony IRS Pub 78 does indeed list all of the entities which want their contributors to receive a tax deduction. This document coupled with F990 which describes the nature of the entity is the empirical evidence for the existance of at least 30,000 discrete entities of evangelical persuasion.

Show some probative evidence to refute my assertion or remain silent on this issue. You offered no probative evidence just self serving testimony. Oh Well you know where your credibility stands.

These documents are open for public inspection so have at it. Does your denial in this matter demonstrates a low level of credibility in other areas?

Your statement about Pub 78 without any verification is prima facie evidence that you need to be silent in areas in which you have no expertise.

It appears you use the "I believe" to enhance the credibility of your interpretation of scripture. A magisterium of one among 30,000 plus cults each claiming to know the mind of God. Perhaps, a meeting of the sacred and profane.

Your rant on the Septuagint fails to meet the Burden of Proof and remains just like the inane Pub 78 comment, a defining moment for your posting history or should we say it is beyond belief. Unfortunately, given the illogical and substantive bankrupt nature of this post one has low expectations for ensuing comments.

Pub 78 has grown dramatically since I last viewed it in 1998 and I would venture to say based on internal documents the entities now exceed 100,000. The agency keeps statistics on these Pubs and under FOIA one can see studies have been rendered. You can also obtain the F 990 under FOIA.

Suggest you have a grasp of the subject matter before embarrassing yourself again with your comment on Pub 78. Don't be lazy check out my contentions as they are verifiable. Perhaps one of your buddies whose approbation you constantly seek and need can assist you in this endeavor as the IRS personnel are friendly and will even explain how the process works and provide you with statistical analysis to facilitate your progress.

I trust that this will disabuse you from any obvious knowledge deficiencies that might exist .I try to enlighten you on these spiritual affairs and the friendly folks at the IRS will assist in the world of Caesar.

Good night and God bless

Well, it certainly is a good thing that we already know that your evidence is as flawed as a cheap diamond. You do comprehend the point that discrete "entities" does not equate to different denominations, don't you? Perhaps this conversation may help to remind you. The one you had with Markomalley back in June of last year on this very subject. I saved it because I somehow just knew we hadn't heard the last of it:

Why then are there that many volumes of Pub 78 ? Years ago it was 9 volumes but I wager it is more now. Most Catholic institutions tend to use the same EIN number but some have applied for their individual number. Each of these volumes is quite thick and the print is small. There are some secular non profit entities listed but while perusing pages years ago I noticed that the protestant churches are quite evident on randomly selected pages I made from several volumes. To obtain a number the entity must furnish and update their information some of which informs the reader of religious affiliation. I did not look at the documentation so I can not categorically state that there was not some affiliation between each entry. That would take a lifetime of research.

From BRONX2 on 6/15/10

To: bronx2

All I can say is be consistent then and identify each diocese in the world as its own denomination (both RC, EC, EO, and OO). There would, by the measure used by this group that developed the 30,000 (or 39,000 now) denominations, be somewhere over 8,000 denominations of Catholics and Orthodox. You and I both know that isn’t right. One other thing to consider regarding pub 78. My Knights of Columbus council has a charitable corporation that is registered in Pub 78. There are pages upon pages of Knights of Columbus organizations registered in that pub. How many Knights of Columbus fraternal benefit organizations are there? To my knowledge, just one. Even though each council is incorporated on its own, they are part of one large organization. I think you would see the same thing with any number of outfits that have independent chapters. You want to use “30,000” — go ahead. But just think: they have every right in the world to come back with “3,000” Roman Catholic denominations...using the same measure. And don’t ever complain if one of them does so, because they’ll be consistent with the measure you used.

18 posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 1:33:56 PM by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)

You can't say you weren't warned.

[IRS Publication 78, Cumulative List of Organizations described in Section 170(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, a list of organizations eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions] has grown dramatically since I last viewed it in 1998 and I would venture to say based on internal documents the entities now exceed 100,000. The agency keeps statistics on these Pubs and under FOIA one can see studies have been rendered. You can also obtain the [Form 990, Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax] under FOIA.

Spittake

I downloaded the current version of Publication 78. Note that it contains a list of charitable organizations, not church denominations per se. If we're going to accept Pub 78 as "prima facie evidence of the disorganized state of confusion in the evangelical landscape", then we also must accept its "prima facie evidence" that there are at least 100 Catholic denominations within the United States. To quote bronx2's post #2565, how can so many divisions reflect the essence of His prayer? But truth be told, where did the number of 33,000 come from? It certainly wasn't from Publication 78.

The Perspicuity of Scripture and Other Creation Myths

Let's grant that Catholic apologist-types beat the 33,000 denominations drum too much and don't really pay attention to the commonalities that exist in much of Protestant theology. Let us also grant that Catholic apologist types often don't pay attention, in such polemics, to the divisions in our own house.

Unsound Sticks, or, Arguments Catholics Shouldn't Use

1. Do not allege that there are 33,000 Protestant denominations. This tally comes from the 2001 World Christian Encyclopedia, and it includes all denominations and paradenominations which self-identify as Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Old Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Gnostics, Bogomils, etc. And even so, the number is too high. The World Christian Encyclopedia artificially inflates the number of Catholic "denominations" by counting Eastern Churches in communion with Rome as separate denominations. It likewise inflates the number of Eastern Orthodox "denominations" by counting Churches in communion with each other as distinct....
....even if we could arrive at an accurate tally for Protestant denominations (20,000?), we still could not blame the whole of that number on Sola Scriptura. Some of these churches share substantial unity in faith, even if they are juridically independent (perhaps due to geography). And much of the disunity of faith within Protestantism, at least in the developed world, stems from efforts to subordinate the authority of Scripture (e.g., to various sexual perversions). In reality, if every Protestant denomination were serious and consistent in affirming and applying the rule of Sola Scriptura, the spectrum of Protestant belief would be significantly narrower. It bears emphasizing: the only thing for which we can directly blame Sola Scriptura is the extent to which it fails to provide unity in true faith and morals to those who sincerely adhere to it, e.g., "orthodox" Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Campbellites, etc.

30,000 Protestant Denominations?

When this figure first surfaced among Roman Catholic apologists, it started at 20,000 Protestant denominations, grew to 23,000 Protestant denominations, then to 25,000 Protestant denominations. More recently, that figure has been inflated to 28,000, to over 32,000. These days, many Roman Catholic apologists feel content simply to calculate a daily rate of growth (based on their previous adherence to the original benchmark figure of 20,000) that they can then use as a basis for projecting just how many Protestant denominations there were, or will be, in any given year....
....If the Roman Catholic apologist wants instead to cite 8,196 idiosyncrasies within Protestantism, then he must be willing to compare that figure to at least 2,942 (perhaps upwards of 8,000 these days) idiosyncrasies within Roman Catholicism. In any case, he cannot compare the one ecclesial tradition of Roman Catholicism to 25,000, 8,196, or even twenty-one Protestant denominations; for Barrett places Roman Catholicism (as a single ecclesial tradition) on the same level as Protestantism (as a single ecclesial tradition)....
....In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly—and, as a result, irresponsibly—glanced at Barrett’s work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded. One can only hope that, upon reading this critique, Roman Catholic apologists will finally put this argument to bed. The more likely scenario, however, is that the death of this argument will come about only when Evangelicals consistently point out this error—and correct it—each time it is raised by a Roman Catholic apologist. Sooner or later they will grow weary of the embarrassment that accompanies citing erroneous figures in a public forum.