My Faith: Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN), from Catholic to Muslim

CNN ^ | 9/1/11 | Chris Welch

[CynicalBear]

>>The Holy Spirit who dwells in every true believer, comforts us. We don't need an institution to do it in His place.<<

As I was praying about this last night I heard the answer. The first word in Christian is Christ. As I’m reading through this thread I see some who quote Christ and scripture. Many others refer to church catechism or other positions of the church.

I re read many of the posts this morning. It’s becoming obvious to me what the difference between a Christian and a Churchian is. It’s who they look to first for answers. Watch each post to see where they get their core beliefs. Is it Christ or is it the church?

[Cronos]

Quix you said about Benny Hinn that He affirms all the cardinal doctrines of the faith AND that Christ came in the flesh.

I'm not at all convinced he's a false prophet. Excessive in a list of ways, probably.

Note -- Benny boy IS a false prophet as is that other guy, Jesse the con-man Duplantis.

[MarkBsnr]

I am jumping in late, but your statement: Here’s an even bigger hint: the Jewish OT God is not a Trinity either. Strikes me as in need of fleshing out. Beyond the Christian claim to the OT, did not our Lord point out Psalm 110 in the Gospels?

Okay. My point is that the OT taken by itself does formulate a Trinity. Just ask any observant Orthodox Jew if the Lord God Almighty is a trinity, for instance.

It is only with the understanding of Nicea that we can look backwards and pick out those passages and phrases in the OT that would seem to support the NT Christian Trinitarian understanding. But consider this: there are many "Christians" who are not Trinitarian. Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons and Jehovahs' Witnesses are some of the "Christian" groups that do not believe in the Trinity.

Taken by themselves, the Synoptic Gospels and the writings of Paul are not strictly Trinitarian and cannot be used to derive Trinitarian beliefs from first principles either. It is to the Gospel of John that we must look.

[Cronos]

What proof is there that your group belongs on a “Protestant” Caucus? I doubt the Presbyterians and Lutherans and Methodists would want to associate with a group that rejects the scriptural doctrine found in the Nicene Creed

[Iscool]

Receiving assurance at an agonal time is a work of mercy.

Sorry, but a member of your clergy can not determine nor sway the outcome of your final destiny...

[Cronos]

oh, so then do you believe in the scriptural beliefs outlined in the Nicene Creed below? At the very least our Reformed friends believe that the beliefs outlined here are true and what defines a person as Christian -- do you believe in these metmo?

Nicene Creed

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium. Et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula. Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri; per quem omnia facta sunt. Qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de caelis. Et incarnatus est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est. Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est, et resurrexit tertia die, secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in caelum, sedet ad dexteram Patris. Et iterum venturus est cum gloria, iudicare vivos et mortuos, cuius regni non erit finis. Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre Filioque procedit. Qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur: qui locutus est per prophetas. Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.  We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.  We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[Quix]

Sorry, my reply got cut off. I wanted to say that it is not Catholics that start these mammoth arguments on the open threads. It is mostly inflammatory remarks from a few anti-Catholic posters who get them going.

It's ALMOST shocking that any RC's could actually believe that.

I'm not particularly interested in documenting the opposite nature of things with a score card. I know Someone who is.

[bkaycee]

I think your on the wrong thread, or are these just autobot rants you post on any thread involving religion?

[Quix]

I’m beginning to think all those rocks

MUST be

Ishtar-Mary’s gallstones.

[CynicalBear]

>>Protestant Churches don’t have much to offer, as far as I have seen.<<

LOL There ya go again with the church comes before Christ thing. I’ve had a lot of experience with what the protestant Pastor does. They stop by the hospital room and say hi to the patient, ask if they are comfortable, maybe visit for a minute or so then go spend time with the family knowing that the sick and dying are in God’s hands.

Are you a Churchian or a Christian? Who do you look to first, last and always?

[Iscool]

It is apparent that you know nothing of Catholicism or Islam (hint, Calvinism is pretty much re-branded Islam). Islam is not a Trinitarian faith, because the Abrahamic Covenant from which it mutated is not Trinitarian.

Hey, you're the one that posted it...You said the mention of God by a Catholic automatically presupposes the knowledge that the Trinity is included in the word God...

Then you go on to claim that muzlims believe in the same God and use Jesus and Mary to accentuate that belief with the Catholic belief in God...Unity at it's best...

Quit whining when someone calls you out on your unGodly, unBiblical Catholic beliefs that you so proudly boast about...

[MarkBsnr]

We all have the choice. We can follow the traditions of Christ as given to us by the Apostles and their successors. Or we can follow the tradition of the god in the mirror. Your choice and mine. To be made individually.

Yes, Markbsnr, we DO have a choice and that choice is not, as you expressed, between what Almighty God has revealed through his Son and the Apostles or our own imagined god.

That is the basis of Reformational theology.

Any person who claims the Christian faith MUST hold to what the Holy Bible says because it is the revelation from God. Through the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke as he moved them and what God has preserved for us is our authority.

Snippets; bits and pieces thrown into the air and read as they land do not mean that one follows the Holy Bible. The Holy Spirit moved the Bible writers, but individual Protestants claiming that whatever they came up with this morning is the fault of the Holy Spirit is blasphemy.

We cannot rely on the traditions of fallible men but only upon what has been taught that the authority of Scripture proves.

Taught by whom? Martin Luther? John Calvin? Robert Schuller? Jimmy Swaggart? The god in the mirror?

I don't blame you for wanting to deflect the point about the glaring error in your Catechism regarding the Muslim religion and Christianity worshipping the same god.

Bone up on your history, I said before. Islam traces its roots back to Abraham. No error there, but actual true historical fact. Emotions notwithstanding, it is true.

According to the Catechism, 'together with us (Catholics) they (Muslims) adore the one, merciful God.' Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said:: We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection' (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).

We may say the same about Joel Osteen and Ted Haggard as well. However imperfectly, we believe that they worship the One True God. As opposed to the Buddhists or the shamans of the Congo.

I should note in passing that Islam’s doctrinal hostility to Biblical Christianity apparently does not bother the Roman Catholic Church, for Rome declared in its 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church (paragraph 841) that Muslims are included within God’s plan of salvation because they 'acknowledge the Creator

Hysteria aside, it does not make it any less true.

Look, we agree that Islam is a false worship of God. However, because they believe in the God of Abraham, they still technically do worship the One God, however they practice that worship. You want to hold up the snake handling Oneness Pentecostals as better examples of worshipping the One God? How about the Branch Davidians? How about the white separatist Nazi groups scattered about the US? The Michigan Militia? They all teach out of the Bible. Are they Christian?

Words and terms have meaning. The Church is correct here yet again and you are wrong. I don't care how much hysteria is involved.

[Cronos]

Rocks? Doesn't your group believe that Jesse went to heaven to meet and comfort God?

The same Jesse who says

• "As I stepped out of the chariot, everything I saw was so beautiful. I had always thought that when I went to heaven I would see only a city. But the first place I saw was Paradise; it hadn't been destroyed. Paradise is a big place, completely surrounding the Holy City. It is like being on another planet."

• I saw Elohim, Jehovah God, Yahweh sitting on the Throne! But I saw His feet - only His feet. . . He is so big - you can’t describe Him in a dimension. His hand is huge! His body, the form of it, is sort of like energy, spirit. There’s a wall around the Throne, but the Throne is higher than the wall - that’s why you can see the Throne from every direction, from a distance. And that power, that energy-like smoke of God, covers all around the chair of the Throne itself."

• "There was a cloud that looked like smoke going up from the Throne and I heard that massive sound, "whoosh! It was power like I’ve never experienced in my life. Then I saw God’s finger barely move and when it moved, an angel that was flying near Him was thrown up against a wall. Bam! It didn’t hurt the angel."

• then Jesus starts to say how He is dreading the day when He has to send some of His creation to hell, so Jesse comes to Jesus's rescue! "I wanted to reach out and comfort Him, so I put my hand on the Lord. . .I could tell that Jesus was hurting."

• "I didn’t know before how much He needed me to reach out to other people. I have always thought of how much I needed Him, not how much He needs me. . .He smiled at me and said, "I chose you. No one else wanted you, and I need you Jesse."

  Fantastico!

[Cronos]

Jesse Duplantis, the guy who preached that You, not God, Decides When to Die

“I’m going to say something that will knock your lights off. Go has the power to take life, but He can’t. He’s got the power to do it, but He won’t. He’s bound; He can’t. He says, “Death and life is in the power of” who’s tongue? Yours. You ready for this? You want something that’ll knock your lights off? You choose when you live; you choose when you die. Death and life is in the power of your tongue, not God’s.

So, Quix, why do you hold that Jesse is truthful and not a con-man from heck?

[bkaycee]

: there are many "Christians" who are not Trinitarian. Oneness Pentecostals, Mormons and Jehovahs' Witnesses are some of the "Christian" groups that do not believe in the Trinity.

Those groups are hardly "Christian".

Mormons are polytheists, Jehovahs W's are Neo Arians, Ones groups are Modalists, I believe.

[MarkBsnr]

Too bad no one bothered to read 842

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. .

When the truth is sacrificed on the altar of antiCatholicism, why would they?

[Cronos]

quix: I'm not particularly interested in documenting the opposite nature of things with a score card. I know Someone who is.

Oh, we know someone too - your posts talk about documenting the score-card pretty much, right up there with a thread that was promoting the 9/11 conspiracy -- such a belief is traitorous at the least

[Cronos]

Quixo -- All that we ask for is a shred of
—honesty
—objectivity
—insight
—candor
—integrity
—consistency
—solid Biblical understanding
—historical accuracy
—logical thought processes
♫ Hitchin' a ride, hitchin' a ride ♫

In your posts, yet we find none.

What is hilarious is that everyone sees your posts and realizes they contain as much sense as Obambi's speechs -- then whatever else you talk about, people realise that the opposite is true.

[CynicalBear]

>>Yet, you want me to preach Christ to the moslems who come to my store, by other than courtesy and respect? Come on, be clear, what am I supposed to do, in your book?<<

Here’s a couple of verses that may get you going on a study of that subject.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[Cronos]

Quixo -- doesn't your group also advocate The Bible Code website by the guy who revealed that he believed the Scriptures to be messages from a race of space aliens?