Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Minneapolis, Minnesota (CNN) –Prior to 2006, few people even knew that then-Minnesota state legislator Keith Ellison was a Muslim. Because of his English name, he said, no one thought to ask.
But five years ago, when he ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives - a race he would go on to win - word of his religious affiliation began to spread.
“When I started running for Congress it actually took me by surprise that so many people were fascinated with me being the first Muslim in Congress,” said Ellison, a Democrat now serving his third term in the House.
“But someone said to me, ‘Look Keith, think of a person of Japanese origin running for Congress six years after Pearl Harbor–this might be a news story.’”
Though Ellison's status as the first Muslim elected to Congress is widely known, fewer are aware that he was born into a Catholic family in Detroit and was brought up attending Catholic schools.
But he said he was never comfortable with that faith.
“I just felt it was ritual and dogma,” Ellison said. “Of course, that’s not the reality of Catholicism, but it’s the reality I lived. So I just kind of lost interest and stopped going to Mass unless I was required to.”
It wasn’t until he was a student at Wayne State University in Detroit when Ellison began, “looking for other things.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
The product of not thinking things through to the end result. And then having to go back and re-do, un-do and declare infallibly that it all makes perfect sense.Yes, definitely and in addition, over 1000 years of ever increasing tares taking over and gutting the saving Gospel of grace through Faith.
I and many others here use only the Holy WORD of Elohim However wiki is a good source for common history No one that I know uses wiki for theology.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
and we reject man-made Traditions.
about Roman Pontiffs e.g.Constantine and Augustus, etc.
Bwahahahaha! I think you may have just caused Judith to go into fits. I honestly think that she doesn't realize that the Redemption of Mankind is something that only Christ could have done. I wonder if she's ever read and comprehended Esther?
The objection to Mary sharing in redemptive work is, IMHO, in the same “family” as the objection to Paul’s making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ
There is nothing lacking, and how could a sinner make it up if there were? Yet here we have the text.
So, I think the answer to one is likely to be in the same family as the answer to the other.
And, as I have said so many times on this thread that I’m afraid of being ridiculous, the answer is that it is not just Mary or just Paul. It is them in Christ, and Christ in them.
This is at least 5,000 word paper stuff, which is why I end up being so elliptical.
Yet more childish debate, ignore what has been argued and present a new argument. It’s distraction pure and simple meant to deflect from the reality that one has been bested and now wishes to move the goal post. But, I am more than willing and somewhat able to go down this road with you.
I will concede beforehand that Scripture does not specifically say that Mary was assumed into heaven body and soul. Not a hard concession as Scripture does not record her death. Does that mean she did not die? Scripture does not record the death of most of the Apostles. Did they not die?
Absence in Scripture does not mean something did not happen. Can we agree on that? Sure, I knew we could.
Scripture, especially the NT is not an exhaustive history of the Christian faith. It is limited to the events and theology of its times. That does not mean it isn’t timeless or that we, 2000 years removed, cannot and do not rely on it as a foundation of our faith.
The Gospels, the Synoptic ones specifically, were written to prove one thing; that Jesus was the Son of God, that He lived, died and was resurrected for our redemption and salvation. Once it is proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the Apostles then claimed authority to teach His Good News and do as Jesus bid them, forgive sins, bind and loose, and making disciples and baptizing believers.
Acts is strictly the history of the beginning of the Church. It does not seek to record the entire history of the Church as that would mean it is an ongoing work.
But, we see how the first ministry is established, the first council and the first martyrs for the faith. We learn the rudimentary outline of the church, the community of believers and how they lived the faith.
The epistles are written to those who believe. They are theological instructions and practical advise for the church and individual believers. They were often written to remind those who already believe what they believe and why. From the very beginning, people got it wrong and needed correction. From the beginning people wavered and needed to be strengthened. From the beginning, people need to hear how a live in Christ is lived.
Those needs did not end with the Apostles and though we can rely on the Truth of Scripture and trust that
, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17
not all theological questions and are found or answered specifically within it.
For instance, Scripture does not specifically define the doctrine of the Trinity or even use the word Trinity. That doctrine is gleaned from Scripture, implicitly found in the words of Jesus and then the Apostles. But, should I ask you to give me the exact book and verse whereby the Trinity is found in Scripture, you could not do so. All you can do is give me Scripture that supports the doctrine and thus say with conviction that the doctrine of the Trinity does not contradict Scripture.
Now on even that basic tenet, there is disagreement and those who disagree can point to what they believe supports their position that there is but one God, not one God in three persons which are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They will argue that the Father is the only God, that Jesus, though His son was not God, and the Holy Spirit is not God but the breath or essence of God sent out to do His will.
Scripture does not speak specifically on the two natures of Jesus as fully man and fully God. And many heresies arose after the written Scripture regarding Jesus.
In both instances, even after hundreds of years of study and debate and prayer, no one can fully and adequately explain it. The magnitude of those two things are beyond our human limitations to fully comprehend. We take it on faith don’t we?
If one does not know the exegesis accepted by all Christians, one might be swayed by others to different beliefs. That is how people become Mormons, JW, Unitarians and other more obscure sects or cults.
I say all of this as a preliminary to the coming debate over the two theological points you raised in your deflection.
As I said, I can go down this path and give you Scriptures which I believe support the Church’s teachings on those doctrines.
If you can accept and thus believe those supportive Scriptures, you are Catholic.
If you do not, you are protestant.
It becomes a matter of trust and authority. I must admit that I do not come to those beliefs on my own but have been taught them by the Church, who through hundreds of years has pondered such things and made its declaration regarding them. Greater minds than mine have been occupied with these things and I do not imagine myself an equal to them.
So, I do as we are told to do in Scripture. I search Scripture to determine if what they say is true. I am peaceful in my faith that it is Truth and grateful that God has made that Truth known to me through His Church.
Protestants reject the authority of the Church to make such doctrinal declarations as well as reject the Scriptural support for them out of hand. It is the way they have been brought up in the faith for the most part, and many Catholics have been lured away due to their own ignorance of history and theology.
I do not hold this against them. I respect that they have not been steeped in Catholicism but have been steeped in Protestantism. I can appreciate what they do believe and as the Church does, consider them brothers and sisters in Christ.
I apologize for the length of this, but felt that groundwork needed to be laid before we begin this journey together. You may vehemently reject my interpretation and understanding of Scripture and I can accept that, but unless and until you can admit that your own interpretation is a product of the same education as mine we can have no debate, only an argument.
What do I mean by our education? I mean that your faith has been handed on to you by someone else. You have come to your understanding through the exegesis of others and you do as I do which is to test what these others say to see if it is supported by Scripture. You either then accept or reject those teachings. Which makes your faith education no different than mine, we just have chosen to accept a different authority.
If you claim Scripture alone as your sole and final authority”, you have made an extra Biblical claim as no where does Scripture make that claim for itself. The claim itself is a bit disingenuous since no one has ever picked up a Bible and read it free from the influence of others. If you claim the Holy Spirit is your inspiration and guide, you make the same claim as the Church.
So, do you still want to do this? I have to work today and the rest of the week, so my posts will have to be sporadic and spread out over time, but hey, if you’re game so am I.
If you are Baptized you are present in the Eucharist, because you are in Christ and He is present in the Eucharist.
Mary didn't have any part of your Redemption. She carried Christ in the Womb, that's all.Yes, Mary's role was complete after the virgin birth had taken place. That was her role and she was certainly Blessed. John the Baptist had a role as did all the prophets and writers of the scripture. Mary is just one of many servants among others. Giving birth to the Savior did not give her the ability to hear and answer prayer, dispense ALL "graces" or soften God's justice towards the sinner.
A real conundrum.
You did not provide the quote showing I said what you said I did, neither will I answer your question.
Seriously, your selection of quotes does not imply what you say they imply. So if you didn’t get what I said then, but insist you did get it, I see no use in going further. I don’t have either time or desire for this sort of thing. I always find it interesting and distasteful when incomprehension is presented in triumph.
Please accept my apology, I didn't see your question. Where was it?
The Eucharist is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. Is Mary a part of that? You can answer your own question.
Excommunication is not expulsion from the Catholic Church. Was that your question?
Well, THAT should certainly be proven by Scripture, right? I'm waiting.......
And notice I did answer it the minute I saw it.
I think you don’t think of these “co-” words the way we do.
Yes, Mary's role was complete after the virgin birth had taken place. Well, THAT should certainly be proven by Scripture, right? I'm waiting......Well, she was part of the posse that thought Jesus was crazy and "they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind." Mark 3:20, 3:31
Do you know of any Old Testament prophecies regarding Mary, greater than her role in the Virgin Birth?
Oh, I didn’t realize I had less than half an hour to answer your question. Next time, please let me know my time limit.
I’m waiting for the scripture that says her role was complete.
God made us individuals and not carbon copies of each other.
I don’t see the point in *Christianizing* (which IMO is really Westernizing and a church/cultural thing) anyone.
People need to be themselves, not somebody else. Everybody else is already taken. We need to be what God made us to be and do what HE has for us to do.
And Paul martyred Stephen. So what?
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