Posted on 08/27/2011 2:14:11 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
To Israel first. Once they accept their Messiah, to the gentile nations. Which we all know did not happen. But will happen during the tribulation.
***Actually, you can come to him no other way. Repent means to change your mind. And we are commanded to repent. If we do not repent and believe, we will die.***
True, we must repent. But we cannot repent until we are shown our sins, and we do not recognize our sins until the gospel is revealed to us, and we cannot have the gospel revealed to us unless the Holy Spirit is working in us to hear the gospel. Remember, man flees from the light.
Seems to me that "elect" needs further defining if possible, before moving on to the other issues you've raised here. IMO, the "elect" are those chosen by God for reasons as yet unknown to us.
Romans 8 says: “28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
Yes, God knows in advance who will or will not believe - but he does not compel some to believe, and prevent others from doing so. And those who He foreknew, he predestined...to do what? To be conformed to the image of Christ. And God will make sure the calling happens, the justification happens, and the glorification happens - indeed, it uses the past tense to show it is as if it is complete.
If I give my son $200, I know he will blow it. OK, being man, my knowing is imperfect - but God’s is not. Yet foreknowing is nor fore-compelling. It is knowing the end from the beginning, not forcing some to believe, and preventing others, and then pretending that belief is important when all that really matters is if God placed our name on a list to be saved or to be damned.
“Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans 8:29-30, the other chapter is Ephesians 1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus”
“D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the ‘whosoever wills’ the non-elect ‘whosoever wont’s’. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect”.
“Whosoever means, whosoever.” Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect.”
—H.A. Ironside
Election. God’s choice of those who believe in Christ is an important teaching of the apostle Paul (see Ro 8:29-33; 9:6-26; 11:5, 7, 28; Col 3:12; 1 Th 1:4; 2 Th 2:13; Tit 1:1). Election (Gk eklego) refers to God choosing in Christ a people whom he destines to be holy and blameless in his sight (cf. 2 Th 2:13). Paul sees this election as expressing God’s initiative as the God of infinite love in giving us as finite creation every spiritual blessing through the redemptive work of his Son (1:3-5). Paul’s teaching about election involves the following truths:
(1) Election is Christocentric, i.e., election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. “He chose us in him” (Eph. 1:4; see 1:1, note). Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, “Here is my servant whom I have chosen” (Mt 12:18; cf. Isa 42:1, 6; 1 Pet 2:4). Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect (Eph 1:4, 6-7, 9-10, 12-13). No one is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
(2) Election is “in him…through his blood” (Eph 1:7). God purposed before creation (Eph. 1:4) to form a people through Christ’s redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded on Christ’s sacrificial death to save us from our sins (Ac 20:28; Ro 3:24-26).
(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).
(5) Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (Jn 3:16-17; 1Ti 2:4-6; Tit 2:11; Heb 2:9) but becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God’s gift of salvation in Christ (Eph 2:8; 3:17; cf. Ac 20:21; Ro 1:16; 4:16). At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ’s elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, there is both God’s initiative and our response in election (see Ro 8:29, note; 2 Pet 1:1-11).
Predestination. Predestination (Gk prooizo) means “to decide beforehand” and applies to God’s purposes comprehended in election. Election is God’s choice “in Christ” of a people (the true church) for himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God’s people (all genuine believers in Christ).
(1) God predestines his elect to be: (a) called (Rom. 8:30); (b) justified (Ro 3:24, 8:30); (c) glorified (Ro 8:30); (d) conformed to the likeness of his Son (Ro 8:29); (e) holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); (f) adopted as God’s children (1:5); (g) redeemed (1:7); (h) recipients of an inheritance (1:14); (i) for the praise of his glory (Eph 1:2; 1 Pe 2:9); (j) recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14); and (k) created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
(2) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ (i.e., the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:5, 7, 13; cf. Ac 2:38-41; 16:31).
Summary. Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]
“True, we must repent. But we cannot repent until we are shown our sins, and we do not recognize our sins until the gospel is revealed to us, and we cannot have the gospel revealed to us unless the Holy Spirit is working in us to hear the gospel.”
On this, we agree. Apart from God’s grace in reaching down to us, no one can be saved. The question is not does God act first, for we all agree He does. The question is, “Is our response to God’s revelation our response, or His?”
And in scripture, we are commanded to repent and believe - verbs requiring action, and the action comes from us. But it is always a RESPONSE to God, not something we undertake on our own. God reaches down to us, we do not reach up and grab him!
It's like you said before - this is all so simple.
At the end of his life, John Calvin admitted he was wrong. Calvin's "Last Will and Testament, April 25, 1564" as printed in the History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, pp. 828-29, by Philip Schaff, he states: "I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer has shed His blood for the sins of the human race, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...." Here is a clear testimony made by John Calvin who was about to die, in 1564, that He, at least at the end of his life, had come to believe most definitely that the Lord Jesus Christ "shed his precious "blood" "for the sins of the human race".
“Seems to me that “elect” needs further defining if possible”
Please see my post #64.
Read the article. Then you can post all the Scriptures from the article that you’re prepared to deny.
Suppressing the gag reflex, knowing full well that Satan is the author of this dreck, I was looking for passages that "I'm prepared to deny".
I don't deny the passages are what they say, but I do reject the deconstructed passages perverted to mean the opposite of what was intended.
I like how the author spends the first quarter of the article just making one unsubstantiated claim after another. Criticizing saints of God with lies and insults - a regular feature and identifying mark of Dysfunctionalists.
This author clearly does not understand the Gospel and has zero knowledge on the doctrines of Redemption if he truly believes, that despite Romans 10:12; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11 "for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek" that only the "elect" can be ethnic "DNA Certified" Jews (and even more trouble explaining proselytes and folks like the gentile Rahab), then there is no hope for his own Salvation for he has clearly rejected all teachings of Jesus Christ and the Sovereignty of God.
Here are passages that the author, and apparently YOU deny.
1 Thess 1:1-5 To the church of the Thessalonians... knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
The "Church" in Thessalonica must have been composed only of Christ-hating Jews.
Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
I guess there wasn't a single Gentile in Rome either.
Col 3:12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved...
And it appears that every Collosian was an ethnic Jew too.
2 Tim 1:9-10 "...who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...
So Timothy's father was a heathen Greek; Timothy wasn't circumcised until he joined Paul and Silas(Acts 16:3) But he was "an elect Jew" apparently.
1 Peter 1:1-2"To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
And apparently everyone that Peter wrote to was ethnic Jews only - not a single Gentile in the bunch.
I know that Dysfunctionalists have a profoundly demented understanding of Scriptures and a phobia to reason and logic, but are you really going to say that "The Elect" are only Jews, and that two-thirds of God's "Elect" are going to be slaughtered in the most horrific manner in the near future?
That is beyond sick.
Elect , The
(From Forerunner Commentary) Matthew 20:16
In a sense, everybody is called to recognize God through the natural world, but the word “chosen” shows that God must personally rescue us from our self-centered blindness. Using the term “elect,” Titus 1:1 reinforces the idea that God separates some few from the many who are called: “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect. . . .”
Romans 9:11, 14-16 confirms God’s active participation in this process of separation:
. . . (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls). . . . What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Satan has done his work so well that even God declares that he “deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9). Thus, God mercifully separates some away from their blindness. He directly and personally favors a small number for His purposes. Jesus tells us in John 6:44 that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Many other scriptures show that God personally separates a few from the masses of humanity for His purposes.
“Election” is the noun form of the verb “to elect.” To elect means “to select, pick, choose, determine, or separate.” Romans 9:11 tells us that God personally determines whom He will favor for His purposes. In the example Paul uses, He favored Jacob, but the same is true of all whom God calls.
Such people are named the “elect” in the Bible. Romans 11:5, 7, 28 clarifies this term further by revealing that “elect” becomes the title of a distinct people.
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. . . . What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. . . . Concerning the gospel [Israelites] are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
The “chosen” and “elect” are synonymous terms designating the group with whom God is personally working through Jesus Christ. In Matthew 24:24, the term “elect” appears, as it almost always does, as a favorable reference. However, we need to realize that elect does not mean “better than others,” though it certainly implies one more blessed because of something for which God is completely responsible.
John W. Ritenbaugh
The Christian Fight (Part Six)
As much as I think Calvin was a despicable man in that he was very instrumental in Michael Servetus being burned at the stake I believe he was right on salvation by grace alone.
WEll where did Gentiles go before this happened? Eph. 2:11 will tell you. "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands: That AT THAT TIME YE WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, AND STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD".
This is why Israel was so important to the gentile nations and God. When they rejected their Messiah, we were without hope without them.
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph. 2:13.
This is why Israel is called the elect. God elected that Nation to be a Kingdom of priests to the nations. But they rejected their Messiah. Until the time they were blinded and set aside, Acts 28, they were still able to repent, accept Christ, and He would return to set up His Kingdom on Earth. This is why Paul went to the Jew first and performed Jewish rituals during this period. God will deal with them again as a Nation during the tribulation. But for now, God is dealing with man apart from Israel. Purely on the basis of the finished work of Christ.
Wow, it took you a whole three posts to drag the Catholic Church is to a thread that has nothing to do with Catholicism. You just trying to remind everyone who the common enemy is or are you simply an intellectual one trick pony?
It would be very debatable that that portion of the verse applies to this discussion. Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
It was Joshua who was talking to the Israelites and was really speaking “in the flesh”. He was speaking of who they would serve. It would be the same today making that comment to a group of both saved and unsaved people. If the people were saved but back sliders they would have a choice in continuing in their backslidden state or return to Christ.
It was saved by grace and grace alone
This is why they are constantly at war with Scripture and with God and why they have to deny most of the Bible. If the Bible, as God wrote it is true, then their false doctrines blow up in their faces, and that's something they simply can't take a chance on happening.
The Scripture is simple if people take it as God meant it to be taken and as He gave it to us instead of re-writing it and denying it to fit one of the hundreds of man-made belief systems that people have invented for themselves.
God desires all to be saved and calls all to Salvation, yet all are not saved. His Grace is the instrument of His call. Do you accept that grace is irresistible and that grace is not available to all?
Thank you. I haven’t read much on Martin Luther so I didn’t know where he stood on this.
Back now, back to your little world.
An analogy of that would be God’s covenant with Abraham. Did Abraham make that covenant with God or was he sleeping and God made the covenant without Abrahams input?
It was a legitimate question and this is NOT a Protestant caucus thread. If you don't have an answer, just say so. We don't need your condescending pap.
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