Posted on 07/25/2011 10:34:37 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
Wait...
If the book of Mormon is true, you have to also believe in Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God, and if you also believe in Christ, you have to be Mormon...
To do otherwise negates your stance in its entirety...
So as an extension of you first point, what faith is it that you espouse if you believe the BOM is true and yet are not LDS or one if its derivatives...
Oh and for the record I have often shared my faith here, but for your easy reference I am an old school Methodist who has a penchant for the Orthodox faith as well...
You hide your denominations because you don’t want to be linked to anything that might be criticized.
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John admitting to your own membership in the RLDS “denomination” of the religion of Mormonism doesnt unlink to you Joey Smith and his blasphemous religion and its heresies...
Did you think somehow it would prevent the anti-Christian doctrines and tenets of your cult of choice from being exposed and criticised ???
Joey Smith had at least 40 adulterous relationships including 11 married women and 14 year old children starting about 1831. Joey Smith was the one who wrote D&C 132, a teachiong of "the founder"
An evil man, Brigham Young, led the Mormon church into polygamy, based on a false "revelation"
Oh it was a false revelation alright. Joey Smith made it up to cover his tracks and hinder his poor wife Emma Hale from stopping his cheating. He even threatened her life.
BTW Have you ever considered that Joey Smith was just a man with a mans temptations ???
But unlike a decent man Joey Smith entertained those appetites of lust and greed...
Joey Smith restored ancient barbarism but Briggy Young perfected it.
“I notice that those who are trying to shake your faith do not present their own”
... A total and absolute false statement.
For years I have not shrank back from declaring the whole counsel of God forthrightly. Others have done the exact same thing.
Perhaps it troubles you to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace instead of a worldly focus on which Christian Church is the “right one”?
It matters not which specific building you worship in, but Who you worship.
The right one is the one that teaches the truth - regardless of denomination - that glorifies the True God and proclaims the Gospel of Grace that remains apart from works.
I am not trying to undermine Normandy’s faith. I am trying to point out as forcefully as possible that the object of his faith cannot save. I am trying to demonstrate to him that faith is only as good as the object you place it in... and in this case, Normandy has stated his faith is based on his feelings.
As a mormon cousin, I suspect you would say much the same John. And if so, you also believe in a false prophet who was proclaimed in court to be a con man and a false Christ who is a creature and not the creator of all.
ampu
Despite secret temple marriage rites that are not a part of the fullness of the gospel taught in the Book of Mormon, Mormons now living have more of a reputation for happy monogamous marriages than those in many other denominations.
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Actually NO
the divorce rate for Mormons is about the same as any other group...
In part granted because there is one different reason
Most mormon marriages start out as an arranged forced affair between an emotionally immature too young couple and not a voluntry agreement between just the 2 people concerned...
In the culture of the West in the 21st Century, arranged marriages among young people in their teens and early twenties sour through indifference and the lack of comradary and after a time of growing up and reflection...
The urged and hurried marriages dont stand a chance as the participants do not have a long enough time to get to know themselves or their partners before hand...
What might have “endured” during the enclosed 19th century, will not in the more free 21st.
and so there are divorces among the mormons ..
and its a travesty which could have been avoided...
Christian marriage, based on the teachings of its founder, is monogamous.
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Mormon marriage, based on the teachings of its founder, is polygamous.
“I have identified thirty-three well-documented wives of Joseph Smith, which some may regard as an overly conservative numbering... Historians Fawn Brodie, D. Michael Quinn, and George D. Smith list forty-eight, forty-six, and forty-three, respectfully. Yet in problematic areas it may be advisable to err on the side of caution.” (Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, p.1)
Joseph Smith “proposed to at least five more women who turned him down.” (Compton)
Mr. W.: “Joseph kept eight girls in his house, calling them his ‘daughters.’ Emma threatened that she would leave the house, and Joseph told her, “All right, you can go.” She went, but when Joseph reflected that such a scandal would hurt his prophetic dignity, he followed his wife and brought her back. But the eight ‘daughters’ had to leave the house (Dr. W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits)
Miss” Eliza R. Snow, ... was one of the first (willing) victims of Joseph in Nauvoo. She used to be much at the prophet’s house he made her one of his celestial brides... . Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge: and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son (Dr. W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 1886, pp.57-58).
The Mormon writer Claire Noall acknowledged: “Willard realized that Emma had refused to believe that any of the young women boarding at the Mansion when it was first used as a hotel had been married to Joseph. She had struck Eliza Snow at the head of the stairs, and Eliza, it was whispered, had lost her unborn child” (Intimate Disciple, a Portrait of Willard Richards, 1957, p.407).
What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? He would say, “Yes, and I wish I had more to help to build up the kingdom of God.” Or if he came and said, “I want your wife?” “O Yes,” he would say, “here she is, there are plenty more.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, Feb. 19, 1854, pp.13-14)
Lorenzo Snow, who became president of the church in 1898, strongly argued that the church would never cease plural marriage.(Deseret News and Journal of Discourses.)
In his book Mormon Portraits (pp.70-72), Dr. Wyl presents some revealing information:
Joseph Smith finally demanded the wives of all the twelve Apostles that were at home then in Nauvoo.... Vilate Kimball, the first wife of Heber C. Kimball, ... loved her husband, and he, ... loved her, hence a reluctance to comply with the Lord’s demand that Vilate should be consecrated.... They thought the command of the Lord must be obeyed in some way, and a “proxy” way suggested itself to their minds. They had a young daughter only getting out of girlhood; and the father apologizing to the prophet for his wife’s reluctance to comply with his desires, stating, however, that the act must be right or it would not be counselled ... asked Joe if his daughter wouldn’t do as well as his wife. Joe replied that she would do just as well, and the Lord would accept her instead. The half-ripe bud of womanhood was delivered over to the Prophet.
The fact that Joseph Smith asked for Heber C. Kimball’s wife but actually married his daughter is verified in the book The Life of Heber C. Kimball, written by Apostle Orson F. Whitney:
Before he would trust even Heber with the full secret, however, he put him to a test which few men would have been able to bear.
It was no less than a requirement for him to surrender his wife, his beloved Vilate, and give her to Joseph in marriage!
The astounding revelation well-nigh paraly[z]ed him. He could hardly believe he had heard aright. Yet Joseph was solemnly in earnest.... He knew Joseph too well ... to doubt his truth or the divine origin of the behest he had made....
Three days he fasted and wept and prayed. Then, with a broken and a bleeding heart, but with soul self-mastered for the sacrifice, he led his darling wife to the Prophet’s house and presented her to Joseph.
It was enough—the heavens accepted the sacrifice. The will for the deed was taken, and ‘accounted unto him for righteousness.’ Joseph wept at this proof of devotion, and embracing Heber told him that was all the Lord required....
The Prophet joined the hands of the heroic and devoted pair, and then and there, ... Heber and Vilate Kimball were made husband and wife for all eternity (Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp.333-35).
Helen Mar, the eldest daughter of Heber Chase and Vilate Kimball, was given to the Prophet in the holy bonds of Celestial Marriage (p.339).
“That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. “God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;; at another time He said ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (Joseph Smith, letter to Nancy Rigdon, 11 April 1842)
Christian marriage, based on the teachings of its founder, is monogamous. An evil man, Brigham Young, ______________________________________________
said that Christian marriage was “prostitution” because it was monogamous
“fruitful source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World...” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 128).
and not polygamous like the marriages of the Mormons...
The reason I am a Christian is that I believe in Jesus Christ about whom we read in the Bible.
If that were really the case
then why are you a Mormon of whom we read in the book of mormon, the pearl of great price, the word of wisdom, the book of abraham, the journals of discourses, the doctrines and covenants, the general conference addresses etc ???
Normie you cannot be both...
you are either a Christian or you are a Mormon...
Mormonism is NOT Christianity...
The whole idea behind Mormonism was to be as anti-Christianity as possible..
Normie
Christians only have only book, the Hible...
there are not extra books ...
Just from Genesis to Revelation...thats it...
many Christians have written helpful books ABOUT the Bible but they do not ADD to it...they would not dare..
all we ever need to know and learn is within the pages of the Bible...
We can buy one in most book stores...any version..
its all there from milk to meat..
Anyone thinking that they need other books as well are decieved...
In my 62 years the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible have fed me and been all to me..
The problem is not one of needing another book...
the problem is opening and reading the one we have...
“Mormons” are not the Christians that the rest of us define ourselves as. They said so themselves. Their “church” is predicated upon that premise. They hate the Christians we are. Their founders said so without question. We are all the “Whores of Babylon”.
You Mormons are not Christians. You said so yourselves.
Quit whining.
I believe in Jesus Christ about whom we read in the Bible.
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Who is the “we”
I dont read the same as you as a Mormon might..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is God, has always been God and always will be God...
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is the Word of God..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ was there In the beginning...
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ was born to a virgin who had never had sex with a man or anything else..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ went around doing good teaching and preaching and healing the sick and casting devils out of people like Joey Smith..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is the Savior who shed His Blood on the Cross and died on the Cross at Calvary to save us..
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ rose again the third day and spent the next 40 days in and around Jerusalemm teaching His disciples and was seen there every day by several hundred people..never leaving there until the 40th day upon which He went back to Heaven from where He had come from...
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is not ever going to share his throne or His right to judge with anyone, especially a sinner and unrighteous pagan like Joey Smith
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ has a Name that is ABOVE all names, especially the name, Joseph Smith...
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is the LORD of lords and the King of kings, and that Joey Smith is less than a peon...
I read that the LORD Jesus Christ is going to judge the demon possessed Joey Smith and throw him in the lake of fire..
What do you read ???
If God chooses to reveal Himself to another group of people in another time and place shouldn’t we be glad to have a record of that?
There is only one Christ, but no reason why He can’t visit anywhere he chooses, or speak to whom he chooses. I have no reason to believe that the Bible is the only place his words and works are recorded.
Normandy
If that record is factual Norm. Your prophets cannot tell us where this other 'place' was. Your apologists can't come to a common conclusion as to where this other 'place' was - infact there is quite a battle among various apologists on this very point. Internal and external evidence indicates that the entire story line was plagerized from "A View to the Hebrews", "Manuscript Story", the Bible and other popular books of the era.
Which is why the question has to be asked - where is the physical evidence that the nephites and lamanites actually existed Norm. If the account is fictional, then you've placed your faith in fiction - not fact. Falsehood, not truth.
Matt 5:16 Why did the Savior say, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify
your Father which is inn heaven.”? (Works glorifying Heavenly Father?)Is this not a good thing?
I recognize there are other scriptures that seem to contradict this. As for me and my house I will believe The Savior.
You were LDS, to each his own.
I find confusion in Christianity, arguing over Homosexuality,arguing over death bed repentance, new bibles
printed on a regular basis. The success of many congregations is based on entertainment and a flamboyant minister.
Just this week a minister at NASCAR auto races, amongst other inappropriate things, prayed for “His hot Wife”.Congregations are accepting modern liberal thoughts as part of church doctrine.
You have a problem with LDS doctrine, look around your own kingdom.
I think you and yours would be much happier looking for the good.
There can be no good in Mormonism. The motivation would be all wrong.
Mormonism give people nice neat little boxes, bible, definitions, rules and regulations. That isn’t what Christianity is about.
Regardless of translation, Bibles all say pretty much the same thing, pick up any parallel bible and you can see that.
Your comment “The success of many congregations is based on entertainment and a flamboyant minister.” shows you know nothing about Christian churches.
works don’t save, faith saves. All works do (once you already have faith) is show your faith to others, it doesn’t save you. Only works by those ALREADY SAVED BY GRACE can glorify God, and even then it doesn’t affect our salvation. In fact, works without true saving faith (in the Grace of Christ) will DAMN you, they are ‘filthy rags’ (literally used menstrual clothes - which contaminated everything they touched). Once again, Mormons put the cart before the horse.
It isn’t ‘my kingdom’, it is Christ’s. And I am called to judge false doctrine and that is what I am doing with the LDS. Their teachings lead people to Hell and I will not let them go quietly.
Elsie, you can laugh but my wife and I are 85 and use no prescription medication. We go farther than The Word Of Wisdom suggests, and try not to eat any prepared foods with more than 5 ingredients. We are not prefect but do not have headaches or any other painful problems.
Read a few labels, it is interesting.
It is interesting to me how you “Perfect Christians” have very little “Good News” about The Gospel.
I cannot answer for Nana, but I am a member of the Body of Christ, not a building or an organization.
There is only one Christ, but no reason why He can’t visit anywhere he chooses, or speak to whom he chooses. I have no reason to believe that the Bible is the only place his words and works are recorded.
Normandy
Especially since Christ Himself stated that such should in fact be the case:
"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice" (John 10:16).
The idea that the "other sheep" refers to Gentiles is false, because the Gentiles were to be converted through the ministry of His disciples, who were of the tribes of Israel. Jesus Himself was not sent to the Gentiles. Therefore, the "other sheep" would be other descendants of the scattered tribes of Israel. The Book of Mormon reveals that one such group had migrated to the New World. Its account of His ministry there, which I have good reasons to believe was in Mesoamerica, is one of the greatest revelations of what Jesus is like, because it has some unfragmented narration that is stunningly beautiful. Yet there is at least a hundred times more of that ministry that is being held back until God knows that His people are spiritually ready to receive it.
I am not sure whether this greater knowledge will come prior to or after Christ confronts those supposed to be doing His work on Earth (Luke 12:35-48).
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