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To: pgyanke
Don't change the discussion.

I didn't believe I was changing the discussion. I was asking a question that logically followed from you claiming the apostles were not "assigned" to write books of the bible. If you agree that scripture is "God breathed", then obviously they were "assigned" to do it.

Good grief.

54 posted on 07/13/2011 1:09:03 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody
I didn't believe I was changing the discussion. I was asking a question that logically followed from you claiming the apostles were not "assigned" to write books of the bible. If you agree that scripture is "God breathed", then obviously they were "assigned" to do it.

The discussion is Sola Scriptura... therefore, show me in Scripture where the Apostles were instructed to write books and letters for the faithful to follow. Did the early Church have a different mandate than Sola Scriptura?

Of course they wrote at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that isn't in question here. The point is that we know that what they wrote is Scripture from non Scriptural sources!

Good grief.

We found something on which to agree...

56 posted on 07/13/2011 1:56:17 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: MEGoody
As a part of their mission to preach they wrote letters and instructions for those who came to Christ. If they were guided by the Holy Spirit in their preaching, the letters and instructions were guided by the Holy Spirit as well. I believe that if you think about it a bit you'll realize that someone cannot say that Christ led them in their ministry and at the same time somehow think their letters and instructions were simply idle chatter. Every facet of their lives and actions were inspired and the Holy Spirit led every step they took.

The fact is, no where in Scripture is there an explicit instruction for them to write a manual for those who they lead to Christ and no where is there a list of which of their writings should be retained and included in the group of writings we call the Bible. Much more importantly, though, no where does Christ explicitly or implicitly state that the collection of Scriptures the Apostles used included writings that shouldn't be a part of the Scriptures. If the book is paramount, then Christ would without a doubt have at least pointed out portions of Scripture that were not inspired but had been included in Scripture when it was translated into Greek. Indeed, if it takes a scholar to recognize why those books are not genuine, Christ would have made sure the Apostles spoke clearly and often about their being works of men and not works of the Holy Spirit. At least, that is, if the book is paramount and supposed to be the final authority in all matters of faith and morals. That nothing can contradict Scriptures is not nearly the same as Scriptures alone being sufficient.

Those books Catholic Bibles include are all inspired by the Holy Spirit and have been retained as the Word of God by His Church for over two thousand years. Jewish leaders dropped some books that were included in the Septuagint because they clearly referred to Christ, and in order to hide their real reason for doing so dropped other books as well. That they would do whatever sort of rationalizing it took to hide the truth is understandable given their refusal to acknowledge Christ. But if those who argue in favor of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura don't have the same goal, why do they deny the validity of Scripture as it was at the time of Christ? They are, in reality, arguing against themselves to a large extent since their argument is made in defense not of the Scripture as it existed and was read by Christ and preached from by the Apostles, but only a subset of what Christ and the Apostles obviously accepted as Scripture. That’s not really Sola Scriptura at all, that's "Scriptura I-Lika" used to support each individual making "Sola Yourselfa" interpretations.

If someone honestly believes in Sola Scriptura let them defend the Bible as it existed at the time of Christ rather than the Bible as gutted by Luther. Let them argue that those things the that the Apostles never denied and never questioned don't matter and that the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is wrong to believe the Old Testament. If they intend to throw out portions of Scripture and argue Sola Scriptura on behalf of the balance, let them be pure in their doctrine and throw out the rest of the books Luther refused to accept. Throw out Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation, and whatever else Luther didn't think should be included in the Bible. Then, with both a gutted Old Testament and gutted New Testament let them argue Sola Scriptura, because as long as they defend only a subset of Scripture they defend the indefensible, that is, they insist that Scripture is paramount but only to the extent that they are allowed to gut Scripture before saying so.

I pray, I feel the Holy Spirit in my life, I even prayed about and was granted several things in my life that physicians have themselves called unexplainable miracles. Since it took me years of study to realize that Sola Scriptura wasn't a fact, I completely understand where those who still accept that doctrine are coming from. I pray that others here honestly have given their lives to Christ and are honestly and earnestly following him and that whether or not they agree with any of my views they will be blessed as they study His Word.

Regards

57 posted on 07/13/2011 4:31:30 PM PDT by Rashputin (Obama is insane but kept medicated and on golf courses to hide it)
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