Sola Scriptura: Death by a Thousand (or Ten) Qualifications?

Doug Beaumont.org ^ | 7/3/11 | Doug Beaumont

[LearnsFromMistakes]

Paul is speaking for the Church

I think ya lost me there. But that is ok, I don't think it is a big deal.

[D-fendr]

thanks very much for your reply.

I don't think it is a big deal.

To me the big deal is this is the Body of Christ, the Church as Christ established it. I think with the concept of sola scriptura it is "me, the Bible and Christ." I believe this is very far off, and, in addition to being at variance to what Christ established, it also results in great variance in doctrine and practice resulting in a variety of views of who we are, who God is and what our relationship to God and each other is and should be.

This, I think, is the crux of Christianity, and all religions for that matter.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

You caught me. I agree it is big-ish deal, but that isn’t what this thread is about. I was hoping you would respond to the first part of my response, not the second. But, like I said, that isn’t what this thread is about.

Jesus prayed for us to become one as he/father are one. That will happen, but it probably won’t be what most people want it to be.

[pgyanke]

No, God and His Word (The Scriptures) are one and the same.

Close... but not quite. Jesus is the Word made flesh. He instructed His Apostles to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is Tradition (with a capital T) that was handed directly from Christ to the Apostles. We only know of it because it was recorded years later. However, nowhere was it recorded that they were to write Scripture. If we take Sola Scriptura literally, that would invalidate it!

We follow the Word, which is Christ, in Spirit, in Scripture and in the flesh. We do not elevate one part to being the whole part.

[Iscool]

It's useless to argue about, though, since the majority of people realize it's far easier to rationalize any behavior they want to indulge in than it is to change their behavior. As their own final authority on the meaning of Scriptures, there's no need for them to bother changing. Churches ordain queers, marry queers, and proclaim universal salvation, all based on their interpretation of Scriptures.

True...And your religion provides the same incorrect 'private interpretation' as everyone else...

You got priests wearing what appear to be a combination of attire from the OT Temple period mixed with pagan religious priests, and you try to set up your religious heiarchy the same as it was done in the OT...

For you guys, the veil of the Temple has never been ripped in two...

Your religion is full of OT legalism...

When members are getting tats while in Vegas anyway, the same church preaches about the freedom we have in Christ that allows such things. I'm sure everyone can think of their own examples as well.

Just because you guys don't believe God, it doesn't make this is untrue...You can't change the truth by your private interpretation...

The bible says not to get tattoos...But Jesus will not disown his own children for getting a tattoo...Bible says it's lawful to get a tattoo but it is not expedient...

We are under Grace, NOT the law...

[MarkBsnr]

And your religion provides the same incorrect 'private interpretation' as everyone else...

Except for the Church of Iscool (population one). It has the only correct interpretation and is correcting 2000 years of Scriptural error, right?

You got priests wearing what appear to be a combination of attire from the OT Temple period mixed with pagan religious priests, and you try to set up your religious heiarchy the same as it was done in the OT...

And after all we've tried to teach you over the years... Well, the saying is appropriate - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

The bible says not to get tattoos...But Jesus will not disown his own children for getting a tattoo...Bible says it's lawful to get a tattoo but it is not expedient...

Where do you get this stuff? The Bible says not to get tattoos, but where does it say that it's lawful but not expedient? Expedient? Do you know what expedient means?

We are under Grace, NOT the law...

So you can do anything you want and still have eternal salvation? Planning on hitching a ride on the Reformed limousine to Heaven?

[D-fendr]

You caught me. I agree it is big-ish deal, but that isn’t what this thread is about. I was hoping you'd respond..

I really wasn't attempting a gotcha. I'll try to respond to the first part, which if I'm understanding correctly, is about Paul, the Lord's Day, Sabbath.

My response is that it was a big deal that this wasn't a big deal. :)

I'll explain: Romans is Paul writing to two different groups in Rome. The Jewish converts and the gentile converts. They were severely split on doctrine. Did one have to be a Jew, were the Jewish practices no longer in effect? What was the relationship of Jews in the New Covenant? Etc. etc.

This was a very big deal, it was to be the pivot upon which Christianity turned. Paul is resolving a major division of critical importance to the future of the Church. My point is that Paul and the Apostles had authority to decide what is the true Christian belief and faith and soteriology. Big deals.

We don't appreciate it perhaps; but we still have these divisions. We have messianic judaism, nestorianims, modalism, etc. All the heterodoxy and divisions the Church has dealt with in the past are with us anew.

And they will be so long as the Church is a single individual with his own determination of Scripture.

Jesus prayed for us to be One. He established the manner and means for this.

I appreciate your courteous discussion complete with disagreement very much.

[Iscool]

Do you know what expedient means?

Sure do...And so did Paul when he said/wrote it...

Except for the Church of Iscool (population one). It has the only correct interpretation and is correcting 2000 years of Scriptural error, right?

The scripture has never been in error...It's your religion's private interpretation of it that is in error...

So you can do anything you want and still have eternal salvation? Planning on hitching a ride on the Reformed limousine to Heaven?

Nope...It's going to more like Rocket Man...

I think the problem with your not understanding this is due to the fact that Catholics excuse sin...They don't acknowledge it...

Telling little lies is not sin...Being overweight is not a sin...The list goes on and on...But yet you guys are expecting a shot at heaven, possibly...You guys (and we) continually sin and expect to get away with it...Fortunately we are under grace and have a forgiving God...

[MarkBsnr]

Do you know what expedient means?

So Paul said that it was okay to get tattoos? Your Scripture gets more and more novel all the time.

Except for the Church of Iscool (population one). It has the only correct interpretation and is correcting 2000 years of Scriptural error, right?

The scripture has never been in error...It's your religion's private interpretation of it that is in error...

Ah so; well since you said that everyone's interpretation is wrong, and I assume that you are claiming to be right, that my point still stands. How do you claim to be right and everyone else wrong?

So you can do anything you want and still have eternal salvation? Planning on hitching a ride on the Reformed limousine to Heaven?

Nope...It's going to more like Rocket Man...

Will you have to wear a bad wig when you ascend with your partner?

I think the problem with your not understanding this is due to the fact that Catholics excuse sin...They don't acknowledge it...

If Catholics excuse sin, then they must acknowledge it. Your dialogue becomes more fascinating the more that we converse.

Telling little lies is not sin...Being overweight is not a sin...The list goes on and on...But yet you guys are expecting a shot at heaven, possibly...You guys (and we) continually sin and expect to get away with it...Fortunately we are under grace and have a forgiving God...

It just gets better and better. Telling lies is a sin. Being overweight is not a sin - unless your special Bible tells you so. So, you are under Grace, are you? A scary thought...

[Mr Rogers]

Here is a simple test by application of Sola Scriptura:

Is there a Purgatory, where we burn after death until we are good enough for heaven, and can the Pope shorten our stay there by years - hundreds of years - in exchange for our doing something ‘good’ today?

Well, scripture says:

“5For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

To repeat:

“And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”

And in 1 Corinthians we read, “51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

Hmmm...in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed, caught up in the air and always be with the Lord.

That sure doesn’t SOUND like Purgatory, or that we need a Pope to grant us early release from the fires of Purgatory.

So what do you believe? The Traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, or the words of God - His “breath”?

[LearnsFromMistakes]

My point is that Paul and the Apostles had authority to decide what is the true Christian belief and faith and soteriology.

That gets back to the earlier point - you said Paul was writing for 'the Church'. These men often 'establish their credentials' when writing these letters, but I never see them represent themselves as agents from or of 'the Church'. Servants, called, elder, apostle, chosen...maybe 'apostle' should have been capitalized (as a title would be), but I have never seen that (in the bible).

Anyway... I guess I have never considered it 'within their authority' or 'part of their job'. I see that Paul 'heard from God' and communicated that truth. It wasn't his 'interpretation', but 'God's heart in the matter'. In other places they write 'it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit'. They were hearing from God, and recording it. I think that is quite different than 'interpretation'.

These discussions can be civil, until someone takes offense...then it can get ugly...Until then, I always learn a lot.

[MarkBsnr]

Here is a simple test by application of Sola Scriptura:

Is there a Purgatory, where we burn after death until we are good enough for heaven, and can the Pope shorten our stay there by years - hundreds of years - in exchange for our doing something ‘good’ today?

False premise. Once we leave this life, we exit out of time. There is no time frame. There is no 'hundreds of years'. But let us see what Scripture actually says.

Romans 3: 21 6 But now 7 the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.

However we also have:

Revelation 21: 26 The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there, 27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Nothing unclean. Paul tells us that all men are in a state of sin (impurity). Yet nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore there is a process of cleansing. What is that process?

1 Corinthians 3: 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.

The works that men build upon that are other than Christ are of sin. Impurity. Unclean. They must be burned out.

Hebrews 12: 28 Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

A consuming fire. Our sins are burned out of us.

Matthew 5: 25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

Purgatory is a process and not a place. There is no time involved since we will have already passed to the hereafter.

Prayers for those who pass through Purgatory are always applicable, since these people have passed out of time into eternity. Eternally with God. This is Scripture. You're welcome. :)

[johngrace]

Nice explaining!

[sasportas]

The totalitarian Roman Catholic system, with its interposition of popes and priests, the latter in which confession is made to, is addressed in the thread “Globalism, Tribalism and false reality” in the FR News/Activism section. I invite everyone to read it. Here is a quote from it:

“Even the globalist hostility to religious dogmas can be sheeted home to the Christian teaching that man was created as an individual by God in His own image, with individual rights inalienable at the hands of worldly governments, including the right to commune directly with the Creator without the interposition of a human intermediary in the form of a priest or pope. Such ideas are anathema to those hell bent on people control.”

All one has to do to see the truth on the Papacy vs the word of God issue, is substitute Papists for the “tribalists, the globalists, and collectivists “hell bent on people control,” in the article, and simple faith in the word of God for the individualists.

[Mr Rogers]

“Paul tells us that all men are in a state of sin (impurity). Yet nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore there is a process of cleansing.”

Wrong. All have sinned, and fallen short - but Jesus is the righteousness of God for us.

Read it again:

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation [”to appease or make well disposed”] by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”

God Himself is our justifier if we are in Christ. Yes, all have sinned - but through faith, God’s wrath is appeased. He is now “well disposed” to us, if we are in Christ.

We are clean in Christ. “But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” - Ephesians 2

In Christ, we are already seated in the heavenly places - if we remain in Christ. BTW - “in Christ” is one of the most powerful and frequently ignored phrases in the scriptures!

“Therefore there is a process of cleansing. What is that process?”

Well, the personal process of cleansing is NOT found in 1 Cor 3, where he speaks of the Church:

“9For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.”

Jesus Christ is the foundation of the Church. Anyone who builds on it poorly will have his shoddy workmanship exposed - “become manifest” [”readily perceived by the eye or the understanding; evident; obvious; apparent; plain”]

And the person who has built up the Church poorly will, after having his shoddy workmanship revealed to all, will still be saved - only, he will not “receive a reward”.

There is NOTHING here about Purgatory. It is not discussing personal sanctification, but rewards or the lack thereof for those building the church.

“A consuming fire. Our sins are burned out of us.”

No. the ‘consuming fire’ is for those who reject Him. In context:

“25See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven...28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.”

It agrees with the truth taught by John the Baptist (must be a good guy, eh?):

“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

We can be baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit (”gather his wheat into the barn”) or with fire (”the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”)

“Purgatory is a process and not a place. There is no time involved since we will have already passed to the hereafter.”

Umm...well, from what the Apostle said, it must be pretty short, because in the twinkling of an eye, we will join Jesus in the air as he returns, to be with him forever.

Catholic doctrine states: “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.”

Wrong, it is the blood of Jesus that purifies us. No suffering we do redeems our sins, only Jesus.

In life, in this body, we need to be sanctified - made separate, which is what holy means. Burdened with this mortal body, and surrounded by the sins of the old world, we need to separate from it - sanctification.

But when we die, our body is exchanged for a new immortal one, and the old world passes away and we will be instantly forever with the Lord. There is nothing left to be sanctified from.

And sanctification is NOT a cleansing of our sin, but a separating from the evil of this world. There is no more sanctification to do when we die.

“24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

When Christ returns, it will NOT be to deal with our sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

“And every [Jewish] priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.” - Heb 10

In all this there is no hint that those redeemed {”to buy or pay off; clear by payment”] have any futher payment to make.

The Apostles COULD have said, “after death we will undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” - but they didn’t. And Paul said he taught the full counsel of God - yet he forgot to mention that after we die, we will suffer to purify ourselves from the temporal punishment of sin.

That is why Purgatory is a good example of Sola Scriptura. No one reading scripture would ever guess at Purgatory. There is no whisper of it in scripture.

Those who give greater weight to Tradition will allow Tradition to tell them about a place missing from God’s Word.

That is the essence of Sola Scriptura - will our teachings conform to scripture, or will we twist scripture to conform it to our traditions?

[D-fendr]

That gets back to the earlier point - you said Paul was writing for 'the Church'. These men often 'establish their credentials' when writing these letters, but I never see them represent themselves as agents from or of 'the Church'.

I see your point here. Paul in particular seems a bit sensitive about his credentials. But, see, the very need for credentials infers authority.

If you read his letters to the various Church bodies, there are a few places where it's clear he's just speaking for himself, but these aren't doctrinal matters. When he corrects the congregation saying in effect: "some of you do this, some of you think this, but I tell you it is like this... and if you don't do this (discern the body for example) then you're in a heap of bad stuff.."

He is in short telling them: "I have the authority to teach and correct you, and this is what the Church, the Body of Christ is, how we worship and what we believe."

The other example I gave earlier is the first Council, at Jerusalem. They were not deciding for themselves, but for the Church as a whole. They did not create separate churches there, nor even consider opening it up to each individual. This manner and method started with Christ choosing and giving authority to his Apostles, and continued through the major councils, the determination of the canon, etc.

The very idea of sola scriptura is, relatively, a very recent, um, notion. :)

Thanks again for your courteous replies.

[D-fendr]

No one reading scripture would ever guess at Purgatory.

au contraire...

[Jvette]

Jesus was speaking to the Apostles here. We, who were not alive and therefore did not walk with Him, have no need to be reminded of anything He said, as we were not there when He said it.

The Gospels are the record of Jesus’ time with the Apostles and disciples.

John tells us in his gospel, chapter 20, that there is much more that Jesus did that is not included in these(his)writings, but that those that are written are so that we might believe that Jesus is the Messiah and in believing having life in His name.

We see a clear pattern in the the NT.

The gospels set the stage, so to speak, whereby we learn how Jesus came to be and what He did while he walked this earth and from this narrative, we learn to believe.

In Acts, we see the beginning of the Church. We see the beginning of the structure of the church, how a council is handled to determine questions that arise, how men are to be chosen to lead the new churches, and how the church became universal.

In the epistles, we have the “sermons” of the Apostles, telling us how this new Christian faith was supposed to work and how to live a life in Christ.

The Holy Spirit does indeed come to each of us, but we each have a different gift to offer the church.

It is simply wrong think the Holy Spirit leads to the many disparate interpretation of the Truth, that Jesus promised.

[Jvette]

I don’t know anyone that claims their interpretation is infallible. But everyone I know is personally responsible for their interpretation.

Are you new to the religion forum on FR?

Everyone here believes they and they alone can interpret Scripture correctly.

[Jvette]

When Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles on the night of the last supper, Peter at first rejects the notion of Jesus washing his feet. When Jesus says that Peter must allow it and will understand why after, Peter says, well then wash also my head and my hands.

Jesus says that one who has had a bath, has no need to have their head and hands washed, only their feet are dirty.

Now, this is certainly a tale to illustrate the humility of Jesus and that He will ask the same humility of His disciples.

But, if one considers it again, what bath would Jesus have been speaking of? Baptism? If baptism is a remission of sins, then Jesus is saying that when one has been baptized, one has no need to be baptized again.

But, during our walk through life, our feet get dirty, i. e. we sin, and we are therefore in need of continual and frequent cleansing. We are forgiven our sins when we repent of them, so we must always be repentant.

The question then becomes, what happens to us when we die with sins for which we haven’t repented?

If nothing unclean can enter into the glory of God, how does one with unforgiven sins enter?

The church teaches that this is purgatory, a state not a place.

I once heard someone say that purgatory would be the sweet anguished burning in our hearts we will feel when we know that we are soon to be with Jesus, but we must first be perfected for that time.